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London Fintech Podcast
London Fintech Podcast

London Fintech Podcast

Insights, stories & inspiration from a Golden Age of Creativity, Opportunity and Innovation

Available Episodes 10

The world is quite a large place but who better to cover the situation and trend in real-time payments than Craig Ramsey Head of Global Real Time Payments at ACI Worldwide who process around a billion payments per day with total value in the trillions of dollars. In this episode we dive into real time payments in the UK, Europe, the US and within the BRICS as well as talking about the next challenge – namely smooth interconnection of local real time payments networks.

Craig has getting on for 40 yrs experience of payments including having started as a Cobol programmer. He has been at ACI since 2000 and has thus seen a very long time horizon on this topic as well as being involved in managing and planning future real time payments programs worldwide.

The topic certainly turned out to be one that was more fascinating than I had previously realised with many moving parts.

Topics discussed include:

  • Angel numbers (that’s a new one for the LFP)
  • being run over by Presidential motorcades and mistaken more than once for a Hollywood A lister
  • Craigs career journey
  • many tech firsts in the 1980s
  • 2005 as a key date – the genesis of the UK’s faster payments which has been the model for many real time payments systems worldwide
  • more than 70 countries have real-time payments systems
  • historic payments periods in the UK relating to the speed of a horse
  • CHAPS as the first but expensive and restrictive real time payments system that needed replacement
  • the US use of planes to fly cheques around the country :-!
  • cheque21 as ending that
  • important parallel between railroads and payments being quite deep especially around added-values/ecosystem
  • different real time payment names around the world
  • a deep dive dive into why UK immediate payments don’t always arrive immediately
  • payments limits on different systems
  • card rails and payments rails
  • EU and the US real time payments system
  • interconnecting cross-border real time payments – a major trend for the future
  • “it should be possible today without interconnections to move money between countries  that have real time payments within 30minutes”
  • SWIFT’s innovation GPI sped up massively international payments and made them more transparent
  • the reasons for these payments being non-immediate
  • an important reminder that when you send money “to another country” it never actually moves to that country (but rather that foreign banks account with a bank in the originating country)
  • how apparently immediate payment works internationally online when payments aren’t immediate
  • examining the card rails and how they relate to a selling merchant
  • some countries have weekly or even monthly settlement of such payments :-O
  • the new real time payments in Brazil as an example of merchants wanting to shorten the time to receipt of funds
  • “payment” in this case being more like a transfer of credit risk from purchaser to say Mastercard
  • India’s new immediate payment scheme – UPI and how this gets to even street merchants
  • the UK needs an update in its rails to NPA
  • ISO standards for payments
  • leveraging the best innovations from around the world
  • “the BRICS countries are way ahead of us in the UK than what we have right now”
  • the potential impact of greater multipolarity on international payments approaches/systems
  • “payments will never go out of fashion” 🙂
  • “ACI is the company that you have probably never heard of but I suggest that nearly everyone has used our services”
  • ACI’s services and shoutouts
  • the importance of improved customer satisfaction

And much much more 🙂

Share and enjoy!

 

Scaling any successful technology firm (who can expand so much faster than ~”bricks and mortar” firms) involves considerable challenges. These challenges are only compounded by challenges with surrounding infrastructure which, shall we say, aren’t even around the world. What may be taken for granted in the world’s leading tech hubs may be conspicuously absent in many territories. Thus in many ways scaling in emerging markets is the real stress test for an entrepreneurs ability to overcome challenges, internal and external.

Tosin is founder and CEO of Moniepoint, who provide banking platforms, Africa’s largest fintech by transaction volume ($170bn pa) and were recently ranked the second-fastest growing company in Africa by the Financial Times. Based in Lagos Nigeria Tosin has had more than the average entrepreneurs share of challenges dealing not just with scaling a company but scaling it where the ecosystem isn’t entirely ideal.

Topics discussed include:

  • an LFP first – a deep dive into the world of Mortal Kombat 🙂
  • early motivations in life for a later career in technology
  • maintaining challenges in both video games and ones career
  • Tosin’s career journey
  • considering founding a hardware rather than a software company
  • forming Team APT as a precursor helping banks build their technology
  • moving into software creation
  • pivoting in 2019 to moving to offering the products to consumers as well as banks
  • where the concept of “cottage industries” came from
  • the main differences between infrastructure in say London and emerging markets which lead to greater challenges
  • a Case Study of having to build a card delivery system countrywide from scratch
  • network challenges across a country with much lower bandwidths and more expensive data and the impact of that on tech design
  • challenges of hiring talent at the right cost
  • gaps in skillsets
  • challenges of sometimes having to pay “world class rates” for talent eg abroad
  • the mismatch of international salary rates in such cases versus compared to emerging markets levels of revenue
  • countries Moniepoint have hired in
  • the problems in emerging markets of emigration draining the talent pool – challenges of large levels at both ends of the chain
  • compliance and finance controls
  • challenges Moniepoint met with scaling in these areas and reconciliations – a general problem for all businesses as well
  • regulators playing catch-up
  • “regulation is a control function which is almost opposite to innovation”
  • finding a way to work closely with regulators to ensure they feel comfortable with what you are doing
  • exchange rate challenges
  • problems buying eg point-of-sales terminals at international prices
  • challenges around generating trust in emerging markets – the disconnect between “Low-touch tech” with cultures which generate trust personally
  • bridging that gap
  • “Be paranoid! The Paranoid survive..”
  • a Case Study leading to six months of sleepless nights
  • the impact of the Nigerian Central Banks demonetisation on their business
  • shoutouts for Moniepoint’s products services
  • parallels with Moniepoint in other markets
  • expanding into Kenya and East African countries
  • Moniepoint’s plans, ambitions and investors along with super-impressive staff numbers

And much much more 🙂

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It was not that long ago that business lending decisions took days, weeks, or even months. This lengthy period – and then need to perhaps apply to multiple banks was a severe challenge for many organisations, many of whom over time have gone bust whilst going through such processes.

But what if using the best of technology this extended time-period could be reduced to minutes moving way nearer to B2C BNPL decisions? Even a few years back this would sound highly unlikely in anything other than special cases. However Nucleus Commercial Finance have funded £2.6bn of loans and processed over 100,000 loan applications for over a decade with successful results and now make decisions in less than 5 minutes and aim to get that time even lower.

Needless to say this is no easy task and in this episode founder and CEO Chirag Shah leads us through the journey to that. Key elements are naturally the data – where Open Banking and Open Accounting are the technical conduits to getting data, permission to access this data ahead of the need for a loan and naturally the challenge of ensuring that automated decisions are at least as good as if not outperform those of human credit officers.

Topics discussed include:

  • monsoon stopped play
  • monsoon patterns in South and South East Asia
  • Chirag’s career journey to founding Nucleus in 2011
  • the unrecognised root of Fintech in terms of Hedge Funds independence of banks and strong use of technology in the 90s/00s
  • Nucleus origin story
  • key components of the model
  • SME lending even a decade ago in terms of process and timescales
  • 6 million SMEs in the UK and monitoring India as a potential but plenty of scope left in the UK
  • avoiding trading off decision time for decision quality
  • analogy with BNPL’s approach to rapid credit decisions
  • lack of credit rating agencies large stores of data unlike with B2C
  • main challenges are around data rather than decision
  • embedded lending in the SME market
  • variable rates of success by Fintechs
  • the archaic nature of the data available data at Companies House
  • “there are lots of SMEs who can’t produce management accounts”
  • using Open Banking and also Open Accounting
  • the challenge of accounting standards ever-more muddying the water over the actual business situation
  • EBITDA and “adjusted” EBITDAs
  • overcoming this by building models based on the raw banking data
  • deriving the business’ unit economics
  • the roots of these challenges in the 19th invention of “management accounts” breaking with all tradition
  • the challenge of getting access to SMEs accounting data before they need a loan decision
  • businesses are getting more comfortable with granting access to open data but only when they need a loan
  • less comfortable with granting ongoing data
  • how Nucleus overcomes this by sharing their modelling of the business performance as a Dashboard with the SME which helps it all the time not just at “needing a loan” time
  • how Nucleus overcame the challenge that long term loans make it hard to calibrate models – it being say 5yrs until you find whether your model was making “good” decisions
  • evolving to superior automated credit decisions than “human” decisions
  • parallel running the system and credit officers for 18mts
  • segmenting the SME market
  • Nucleus’ new platform Pulse as a decision making tool for the businesses as well as being used by Nucleus for lending decisions
  • partnering with accountants

And much much more 🙂

Share and enjoy!

 

Although the title is apparently three-fold re episode topic the Chinese Fintech market is very different from other markets we have touched upon so far and one that we definitely need to dive into. You will have heard of Alipay but may not know that as long as a decade ago they overtook Paypal to become the worlds largest online/mobile payments platform. They serve an astonishing over 1.3bn users and 80m merchants. Which is impressive. Furthermore – to the super-app point in a radically different marketplace their app – a Super-App, back to the title – doesn’t just do payments but a wide range of functionalities including ride sharing, travel bookings and medical appointments

Like much (all?) in China history goes a long way back. Alipay were founded nearly 20 years ago by Jack Ma as part of the Alibaba Group but later split off. Eva Zhang is CEO of Alipay UK and guides us through this large landscape today.

China is itself either the world’s largest economy or second or about to be first or some such. Even if China isn’t the world’s largest or largest Fintech market I recall Peter Renton founder of Lendit some 5 years ago on this podcast giving us an overview of Fintech around the world (as his conferences covered the world, one annual event being in China) saying that if you wanted to know the future of Fintech just go to China.

So a must-know set of topics for Fintechers. Topics discussed include:

  • my appearance on a plaque in the Beijing Babaoshan Revolutionary Cemetery
  • China as a hugely complex place varying much over geography whether people, language or cuisine
  • Eva’s experience as a native born Chinese of this variation
  • Eva’s career starting in tech and working in Tokyo, Hong Kong, Singapore, Shanghai, New York, London
  • mixing ~inscrutability of culture with sheer practical focus and being good at business
  • ANT Group’s difference from non-Chinese Fintech firms
  • Alipay’s origins some 20 years ago in, like Paypal, solving the challenges of ecommerce payments, however thence moving on to solve other customer needs without excess respect for, as it were, the Finance silo although including products such as BNPL et al
  • China’s long history of innovation
  • WeChatPay story
  • evolution as the driving force along with a relentless focus on execution and solving practical problems
  • different FS institutional structures on banking in China compared to the west leading to very different outcomes for Fintech
  • key geographic areas of importance for Fintech in China
  • structure of FS/Fintech regulation in China compared to America
  • in terms of understanding the market it is less about sectoral themes (Product push perhaps?) and more about consumer needs (demand pull perhaps)
  • evolution through payments being core product, then interest accounts and investments and micro-loans/BNPL
  • the Super-App as key
  • Eva’s app experience of London needs versus in China needs – the radically different approach
  • mini-programs
  • getting married on Alipay (!)
  • is the Alipay App internationalised or Chinese-centric?
  • Alipay Plus in the UK
  • open banking in China?
  • big areas of investment in China Fintech
  • planting trees using the Alipay app
  • the future of Fintech in China
  • Alipay’s direction
  • LLMs
  • over 20 offices outside China
  • email contact details for Alipay internationally – globalcomms@antgroup.com
  • the Zheng He Treasure ships

And much much more 🙂

Share and enjoy!

 

Over a decade into the Fintech revolution its a rare episode that covers something entirely fresh and furthermore a show that I end up thinking I should check out downloading the app – and not just me – everyone who uses insurance (that’ll be everyone) may well do too. Rnwl promise to take the hassle out of all those email renewals at random times of the year as well as providing a single hub to track your insurances as well as a host of other benefits which we dive into. It is one of those ideas so seemingly simple that when its been done one wonders why it hadn’t been before. Maybe it is harder to execute well than it sounds.

Goncalo was last back on the LFP way back in LFP025 in 2015 when he was CEO of Syndicate Room which he founded. Syndicate Room is still going strong but as Goncalo explains he loves most the early part of the entrepreneurial journey the one with infinite creative potential and at the same time no funds, no resources and few people believing it is possible.

Amazingly price comparison sites do not track – or have the data to track your insurance policies and just email you with last years search rerun. Equally insurers are interested in selling you a product and not in your entire insurance portfolio which unless you insure everything with the same provider they don’t capture either on their platforms.

So check this episode out, not just to learn more but also potentially take a burden off your shoulders and potentially have a bunch of added-value along with that.

Topics discussed include:

  • microclimates in Portugal – which area is the most pleasant and temperate to live in?
  • the attraction of serial entrepreneurialism
  • the different flavours of the various stages of the entrepreneurial journey
  • what attracts Goncalo to founding
  • the importance of passion for each stage as well as ability
  • the genesis of the idea for RNWL – an incoming insurance email on holiday
  • Goncalo’s amazement that there was white space on the Fintech map
  • funding even before the business started – “backing the entrepreneur”
  • insuretech challenges that historically have been addressed/attempted to be addressed
  • RNWL’s original vision
  • the fragmentation of one’s insurance arrangments
  • “we make managing your insurance really simple and buying insurance really easy”
  • provision of extra value-added services
  • B2C and B2B2C:  >20,000 app users in a few months despite being B2B focused
  • white-labelling to banking platforms as the monetisation and app as research and development hence free to consumers
  • the ability to forward all of your insurance emails to the app which sorts it all out
  • using the app to tell you your entitlements when eg flights are delayed/travel hiccoughs
  • “when you need insurance cover its typically a very stressful situation” and the benefit in those circs of having everything at your fingertips
  • automated processing of insurance policy details including the ability to query as well as summarise
  • Goncalo’s attitude to the inevitable copying of great ideas and the right entrepreneurial attitude to such challenges
  • opportunities for tuning LLMs as an opportunity – RNWL’s tech approach
  • is over-coverage by insurance a big issue?
  • what are key aspects found from having real platform users
  • key features analysis re coverage and managing the detail in policies
  • a shoutout for any superstars to join RNWL
  • working as a fully-remote company

And much much more 🙂

Share and enjoy!

 

This is a super-rare episode on a fundamentally different way of assessing consumer loan risk so far into the Fintech Age focusing on an area which is bizarrely massively undercovered namely that of utilising Open Banking Data for credit assessment of personal loans. Furthermore this is a rare example of a Fintech – the parent company is Fintern.ai –  which both provides SAAS services to banks under its Render brand and directly lends itself through its Abound brand – which is quite a compelling display of faith in the approach which has so far over two years led to an astonishing 70% reduction in loan defaults :-O

Gerald was previously Global Head of Digital Lending at McKinsey so he should know a thing or two about this topic. Furthermore despite Abound being formed only in 2020 last year they raised an eye-opening £1/2bn in funding so there must be quite a few people out there impressed by Abound.

Topics discussed in this rich episode include:

  • being brought up as an itinerant and the love of the new more generally
  • choosing the best climate
  • the lifestyle of a Partner at McKinsey when one has a global role
  • realisations of gaps in credit assessment
  • Gerald’s career journey
  • the challenge of moving from a solid role to founding a start-up
  • the outdated aspects of consumer credit models
  • revisiting the 1920s debate on the nature of risk in the 1920s namely something one can calculate using data or something that is unknowable (covered in “Radical Uncertainty: Decision-making for an unknowable future” by Lord King and John Kay)
  • squaring the circle between these left-brain and right-brain perspectives
  • the challenge of operationally utilising stress test data
  • comparing models and data
  • frequency of updating models/data as a factor influencing how much the philosophical risk question needs squaring
  • adding in operational management speed of making decisions and changing courses as where the rubber hits the road
  • the four principal reasons behind banks being slow to evolve their credit assessment approach
  • how many metrics can one derive from a stream of banking data especially given the noise – 1, 10, 100, 1000?
  • kinds of metric derived – traditional and non-traditional
  • real assessments compared to say ONS average data being the major key reason along with the iteratively improved model for the massive improvement of default performance compared to market averages
  • the machine underwriter and how it approaches the numerous metrics
  • human underwriter and computer underwriter interaction and mutual support/growth
  • comparing the model to standard rating agency metrics
  • transparency of algorithms
  • dealing with phenomenal discontinuities in assessing risk
  • reinforcement learning from human feedback – close liaison between human underwriters and the computer bods
  • a shoutout for “Sunburst and Luminary: An Apollo Memoir – Don Eyles” as a fascinating description of the human-machine interaction in the case of the Apollo program
  • dealing with discontinuities way better than a traditional lender due to the real time vs historic data approach
  • binary discontinuity vs “seismograph before a volcanic eruption” phenomena in a risk context
  • shoutouts for Abound/Render and vision going forwards
  • the regulator as a force that will end up pushing banks towards using this type of data
  • shoutouts for new staff – 55 people at present

And much more 🙂

Share and enjoy!

 

 

This is a very unique (sic) in the long history of the podcast in that I have finally found a guest brave enough and kind enough to talk about the experience of business failure as well as the human journey through it. Naturally the LFP focuses on proven successes if only to provide North Stars and ideas for other entrepreneurs/intrapreneurs. But in business as in life – and after all the former is simply a subset of the latter – there is much we can learn from failure, painful as it always is. Painful as it is to recount and relive being wounded and scarred this is thus a very heartfelt sharing by Jovi in order to help others avoid incurring similar wounds and scars and thus prevent human suffering – there being no higher cause.

The other challenge with such an episode is avoiding the degree of abstraction that effectively says “work hard, have a great idea and a team” blah blah. Not that any such abstractions are wrong but our lives are more real and rich experiences than any words in a dictionary or clickbait article on “6 ways to guaranteed success”.

Jovi, MD of BAAS at the formidable Fintech Unlimit – formed in 2009 and with an impressive 16 offices in 5 continents – avoids this over-abstraction challenge by taking us on the journey through three businesses – the first of which, an FS brokerage, was an astonishing success for nigh on a decade and survived the 2008 crisis.

We also reference other case studies and life lessons/experiences – both of us for example having experienced that phenomenon when a Midas Touch suddenly becomes the reverse Midas Touch and everything one touches stops turning to Gold and turns to dust.

Overall an entrepreneurial episode from a very human perspective which is easily forgotten and/or glossed over in a world where having “great tech” can take you a long way.

Topics discussed include:

  • bravery and playing American Football
  • when did American Football change from being a version of rugby to a version of riot police scrapping
  • being sued for tackling someone in rugby
  • Jovi’s career journey to becoming an entrepreneur
  • starting cold calling in a brokerage
  • taking leaps of faith
  • starting a brokerage in 2004 and going from 2 founders to over 100 brokers
  • ’06-’08 “the perfect dream”
  • surviving 2008 and pivoting
  • Jovi taking a step back to do an MBA and handing over much to his co-founder
  • around a decade after its formation risk concentration and abnormal Swiss Franc markets, counterparty failure and loss of client funds as a result
  • the impossibility of making an aircraft carrier – or business – so strong it can resist almost any circumstances and still be able to move/make a profit
  • consequently running no risks or hedging them all out will never lead to profit and likewise one cannot build a business which is incapable of being wiped out by some unforeseen turn of events – most businesses that have ever existed have ceased to exist
  • other case studies of concentration risk in various dimensions
  • Jovi’s experience of the “reverse Midas Touch” and reaction to it
  • my experience of the same and insights from a Shamanic Journey as to the “why”
  • changes in governance structure/balance leading to challenges not previously experienced
  • doubling-down
  • Magnus Carlsen and winning at poker as well as being a long time world chess champion
  • client funds failure as a regulatory failure rather than business failure
  • Keith Floyd’s restaurant failure and consequent impact of business suppliers in Bristol
  • taking failure personally or as “one of those things”
  • different people take different periods of time to reboot after failure and “get back on a horse”
  • “God’s Plan” or “pre-life plans” and life’s vicissitudes
  • sheep and goats – the sensible people and the crazy innovators as an important balance for a society to maintain
  • relating romantic relationships to business risk and direction – the need to harmonise
  • founding KeepIt in 2015 and coming #2 in an entrepreneurial contest, being accepted by TechStars and having a bank want to sign you up right away only for time to keep passing before the bank backs out and the window for the idea had slipped way
  • case study of an Indian business and fund-raising “complexities” along with life happening
  • having strength in one’s convictions crossed with the need to feed a family
  • Case Study #3 and the painful lessons from that over a year and a half (you’ll have to listen to that one for the lessons…)
  • product areas and shoutouts for Unlimit (&its rebrand from Unlimint)
  • channels to market for BAAS and the concentrated nature of the marketplace
  • looking for innovative companies to partner with re BAAS

And much much more 🙂

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So rapid is the rate of change in banking and the nature of and control of money right now that today we set a record and have a returning guests a mere 6 months later. Mario (YouTube Channel) first joined us in Feb22 for the gargantuan LFP197 “Money in the 21stC: Ballooning Printing of Fiat/QE/”MMT”/Govt Debt, CBDCs, Crypto, Dedollarisation, Hyperinflation, Gold” and more recently in Feb23 for LFP220 “Has A Century Of The Federal Reserve and 50 Years Off The Gold Standard Directly Led To Monetary and Social Disaster for the West?”.

Now we cover the accelerating trends whose tap roots run deep. The first we might call “debanking” – banks debanking themselves by going bust, banks debanking individuals by denying them bank accounts and banks debanking “cash” to ensure  no alternative (&with CBDCs on the horizon to increase their already way too mighty power).

Separately as many entirely foresaw “debanking” of Russia (Nazi Germany was not debanked of its reserves even in WW2) and the US having economically “sanctioned” one-third of the countries on the planet the second fruit is a creation of a non-dollar-centric financial system with Gold Repatriation, BRICs planning a gold-backed medium of exchange for trade.

As money is not just central to the lives of Financiers and Fintechers but everyone on the planet its the most vital topic to track and so we take stock in mid-2023 of where we are and where we are going.

Topics discussed include:

  • the multiple dimensions of dissidence these days against multiple State/Globalists narratives and how to remain cheerful whilst doing so
  • two quotes in re from an obituary of recently-deceased Mila Kundera:

      “Kundera denounced the “vandals” in power, living “purely in their own immediate present tense [who] are quite capable of turning their country into a wasteland with no history, no memory, no echo of beauty”” 

      “I could always recognise a person who was not a Stalinist, a person whom I needn’t fear, by the way he smiled. A sense of humour was a trustworthy sign of recognition.”

  • how Mario copes with “staring into he darkness”
  • “private dissidence” within even large institutions
  • how this relates to approaching a tipping point when change away from tyranny could flip very rapidly when there is a critical mass of people leaving the official narratives
  • does the truth set you free or make you lonely?
  • what is truth – how to find it, is it hard; the ease of finding falsehoods in comparison
  • US debt payments moving towards a trillion dollars per annum
  • group-think in economic policy and the Bank of England’s recent conversion to hyper-wokism
  • comparison with prior decades – the past 15years has been increasingly insane
  • many waves coinciding now – 71 Gold Standard abandonment, postWW2 US hegemony, post GFC money printing (post covid money printing and many more)
  • debanking:
    • at the bank level – bankruptcies, branch closure and “de-cashing”
    • not just Nigel Farage but thousands being denied bank accounts – Financial Exclusion – cf their nicey-nicey narrative of Financial Inclusion
    • the difficulties faced by older people who aren’t tech savvy
    • banks being increasingly intrusive in enquiring what people plan to do with their own money when they withdraw it :-O
    • plans for CBDCs to increase their power
    • debanking Russia
  • John Law in France in the 1720s as a precedent (Mario’s YouTube episode on this)
  • Max Weber being completely correct a century ago (& cf Star Wars 1) when he foresaw that vast bureaucracies enable tyranny – NB in re Financial regulation and the never ending list of extra-parliamentary rules to be followed
  • Deutsche Bank employs more Laywers and Compliance people than bankers :-!
  • pre 1985 for centuries there had been zero regulation and historically the Police not Banks dealt with catching criminals
  • Gold repatriation and precedents – Venezuela and Germany and the difficulty or impossibility of recovering one’s Gold from the Bank of England :-O
  • no limit to rehypothecation of Gold in London – a mechanism to subdue the Gold price and increase price volatility to make traditional money less attractive to people
  • High Court ruling against Venezuela getting all its Gold back (on pretty flimsy grounds) :-O
  • FT/Reuters survey showing that Gold Repatriation is a trend expected to accelerate
  • China’s increase in infrastructure including more physical less paper Gold markets
  • the complete loss of the essence of finance – trust – by countries in the US and UK in particular
  • cf LME Nickel trade cancellation
  • Moscow Gold trading plans
  • non-dollar trading on the increase and expectations of how this will be managed going forward
  • BRICs plans for gold-backed currency/trading – recent information from Russia
  • US states legalising more use of Gold in a currency context as bottom-up initiatives within the West
  • Mario’s expectations for the rest of the year
  • Maneco’s affiliate/sponsor shoutouts:

And much much more 🙂

Share and enjoy!

 

 

In this episode we dive not just into the world of Islamic Finance and Fintech but the practical lessons we can learn from the world’s oldest “ethical investment” tradition. In particular in an ever-changing world there is always the need to extend and interpret any given set of “ethical finance” guidelines for new circumstances. The Islamic world has had vastly longer to get to grips with managing this confluence of principle and practice in a Heraclitean world of constant change.

In LFP223 we heard about Fintech in the Middle East and North Africa in which regions there are varying mixtures of traditional/Islamic/sharia finance and conventional/modern finance. Umer Suleman has worked in the public sector, at Ernst and Young, HSBC and now at Wahed – an ethical and values driven investment platform based in New York – – an ethical and values driven investment platform based in New York who are perhaps the world’s largest Islamic Fintech – and so is well-placed to appreciate both conventional and Islamic Finance and their complex relationships and how they have changed over time. He is also a member of the Islamic Finance Council of the UK and so well-immersed in this topic.

In this episode we get to understand the challenge and opportunity of serving a specific demographic. Needless to say especially younger demographics around the world in general are becoming ever-more demanding in terms of products and services in the tech age and this too certainly applies to the more religious of the younger Muslim users of FS who may no longer be prepared to accept the inevitable compromises with a world where the Financial System operates almost entirely based on interest that previous generations may have tolerated/had to tolerate.

So plenty of education, rich content and lessons to be learned beyond one particular demographic!

  • a World Bank report from 2015 estimated that global Sharia-compliant Finance assets were around $2trn
  • Imam Al Ghazali – an 11thC polymath – theologian, philosopher, economist and much more
  • the highly-recommended film by Salazar about Al Ghazali’s life The Alchemist of Happiness 
  • by contrast the modern “anti-polymath”-isation of knowing more and more about less and less
  • Al Ghazali was an influence on Adam Smith
  • Umer’s career journey and eventually being able to incorporate his interest in Islamic Finance with his career in finance
  • ethical investment systems of any type need both a basis and a pragmatic way of applying rules made at some point with a different world at a later point; what are the key sources for Islamic Finance?
  • an overview of Islamic Finance principles of investment and banking
  • detailed primary and secondary rules and how they are applied
  • the 5% pragmatic “fall from perfection” realpolitik of permissibility but what needs to be done in those circs
  • what percentages of Finance and Sharia-compliant in the major regions – challenges over lack of data and interesting reasons therefor 🙂
  • Islamic finance per se is only 30-35 years old in its modern form – project financing, house financing, mutual structures
  • the weaknesses of the original forms – rule-compliant but essentially replicating conventional finance and so problem in some cases that it applied the letter of the law but did not follow the spirit of the law
  • challenges of applying all this in a world ruled by infinite debt and money-printing – eg house prices
  • demographic trends in young muslins and the disruptive impact of technology
  • the business impact of the confluence of the above two factors
  • the spirit of Sharia Finance – not encouraging financial inequality
  • the major verticals within Islamic Fintech
    • banking
    • insuretech
    • payment provision
    • investing
  • problem with banking is that whatever type of bank sits on top of a system based on interest
  • Glint as being an example of a Fintech that is not aiming to be Islamic Finance or marketed as that but whose approach is consistent “we love Glint”
  • some examples of notable Islamic Fintechs
    • Pfida
    • Crowd to Live
    • Kestrel -banking SAAS
    • IFG
    • Nesta
    • Ethis in Far East
  • Wahed-X to support startups
  • KB Tehran
  • Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sachs and the value of a “mast to lash oneself to” when insane social developments take place – cf ESG which is based on the ever-evolving Church of the Woke Globalists canon
  • reference texts are
  • Wahed App is available in the US, UK, Malaysia and soon to be in the Middle East and for high-net-worth individuals globally
  • longer term plans – another 9 licences to operate in countries to come
  • “we can’t keep up with the demand, we genuinely can’t keep up with the demand”

And much much more 🙂

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The next in our geographic coverage series on global Fintech past present and future with a special bonus of a taste of Fintech in Asia as Michael, a former Fintech founder himself turned VC at Runa Capital had just returned from a three week trip all around the region.

Like all regions the US has its peculiarities – not least of which the structure of State and Federal regulation which depending on your vertical can be – as it were – more federal or more confederal in flavour. As in many circs the US can also be a country of extremes on the one hand gestating the likes of Paypal one of the very earliest of Fintechs yet on the other being one of the longest holdouts in the western world for the widespread use of cheques.

So in this episode we look at some key themes past, present and future for Fintech and given the US’ outsize role in the global ecosystem there are also some generic topics such as the evolution and possible future or not of key Fintech “inventions” such as P2P and Crypto.

Topics discussed include:

  • three weeks in Asia and places visited to explore local markets in Fintech in several countries
  • at one extreme a sitrep of Fintech and the market circs in Indonesia
  • at the other FIntech themes/issues in Japan
  • MIchael’s career journey from founder through to VC and what he has learned from many different angles on Financial Services
  • Michael’s perspective on Fintech and its long term history in the US from transatlantic cables onwards
  • key early Fintechs in the US
  • idiosyncrasies and challenges of doing Fintech across the US
  • the federal-“confederal” axis as affecting different verticals within Fintech
  • on the other hand pretty consistent consumer behaviour across States
  • which is easier getting regulatory federal licenses or state licences?
  • Paypal and Plaid as examples of “having to grow fast” to avoid regulatory challenges
  • Fintech and geography within the US – changes in this pattern in recent years
  • P2P trends in the UK and US compared
  • a deep dive into the many reasons for P2P’s success and eventual running into the sand compared to expectations of potential competitiveness versus banks
  • key points the P2P model was missing and need fixing if a huge P2P is ever to emerge
  • the crypto journey in the US and challenges with its business model that need solving to take it to the next level
  • general overview
  • huge success and potential of “Fintech as a tool for services or vertical SAAS businesses”
  • “there are still a ton of markets and verticals that are incredibly inefficient done using paper… poor matching of buyers and sellers”
  • attaching payments to such products is more defensible, more efficient and keep clients for longer based on many types of transaction
  • comparison of this – Fintech moving into unexploited areas by banks as opposed to the P2P/crypto attempt to use a battering ram to knock through the main castle gate for banking which has been fortified over centuries
  • greater success of the Fintechs vertical SAAS B2B+ businesses
  • going forward the huge uncertainties within FS per se and how this affects a VC’s approach to investment within Fintech
  • historic precedents for VC investments in difficult times and patterns learned
  • “it’s no longer growth at all costs”
  • 6-18mts as the period of great uncertainty
  • shoutouts for Runa Capital who are early stage investors across different geographies and verticals

And much much more 🙂

Share and enjoy!