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Michael Jamin has been a television writer/showrunner since 1996. He interviews professional writers, artists, and performers about living their creative lives, inspiring listeners to do the same.</p>
I’ll tell you I’m talking about. When I first started sharing my professional journey, I focused on people who were interested in screenwriting. But over the years, my audience has expanded to include all sorts of creative types: actors, artists, novelists, playwrights, performers, and more. With that said, I'm rebranding my podcast. I’ll still talk about screenwriting, but I’ll interview a wider variety of people living their own creative lives. I hope they’ll inspire you to do the same.
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Michael Jamin:
But also it's like when you put energy into something legit energy, not like thinking or dreaming, but when you actually do the work, things
Phil Hudson:
Have a way of
Michael Jamin:
Manifesting like, oh, there's opportunities have a way of appearing because
Phil Hudson:
You've put work into it.
Michael Jamin:
Like these various
Phil Hudson:
Press opportunities
Michael Jamin:
That I've done and other things that have sprung out because of that. That's just from doing the energy
Phil Hudson:
Of posting on social media
Michael Jamin:
And just sharing as much knowledge as I can.
Phil Hudson:
You're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking
Michael Jamin:
About?
Phil Hudson:
I'll tell you what I'm talking
Michael Jamin:
About. I'm talking about creativity, I'm talking about
Phil Hudson:
Writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself
Michael Jamin:
Through the arts. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin and I'm new. I'm all new right now because I've done a rebrand on the podcast. It was called, obviously Screenwriters Need to Hear this. And then Phil and I were talking and we kind of wanted to open up the conversations a little bit so it's not just about screenwriting and so it's more about, I was really getting to talking about people doing all sorts of creative things. I just think it's inspiring. We'll still talk about screenwriting of course, but I wanted to open up the conversation to more people who are doing things that hopefully inspire all of us to just live more creative lives. And Phil don't get upset. Phil is still here, still is not going away. He's very much involved in all this, but the title of course of the new show is What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? And will be answering that question. What the hell am I talking about? Go ahead.
Phil Hudson:
I think the focus in our conversations were really about creativity because you're a bit more than just a screener. When we started this, it was with a specific purpose. We should also point out this is episode 1 0 4, which is two years of doing podcast,
Michael Jamin:
So it was
Phil Hudson:
A good time to take a step back. Reassess. Things have shifted a lot in the industry. Things have shifted a lot for you personally. What you've done over the last few years is pretty phenomenal in terms of growing a following, becoming a bit of a celebrity, becoming a bit of an expert in a lot of news, which we'll talk about. So yeah, it's just a shift to I think, speaking a little bit more to who Michael Jamin is beyond just being a writer and a showrunner, but being a true creative.
Michael Jamin:
And I should mention, so Phil speaks with authority because he runs a digital marketing agency called Rook, SS e o. So this is, he knows what he's talking, he knows the space Well, but without further ado, I guess this episode we were just going to talk a little bit more about how far the changes we've made, what we've seen in the past two years and hopefully maybe what we're moving towards.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, I thought it would be fitting, Michael, just to kind of talk about some statistics around what the success of the podcast, the success of your work as doing your own personal marketing. And I want to remind everybody that the whole point of this was so that you could market your book. So you're taking and eating your own advice, and I think it's very important for people to know, if I think of Michael Jainism, what are some of the things, your catchphrases and the things you say? Some of those are don't wait, put it out there. Put yourself out there. Right.
Michael Jamin:
Stop asking for permission is what I say.
Phil Hudson:
Stop asking for permission.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah,
Phil Hudson:
There are a bunch of those that could be really good slogans for hats, which
Michael Jamin:
You
Phil Hudson:
Should
Michael Jamin:
Consider. A lot of this really, and I guess maybe it's fitting that just that I am the first interview of what the new brand is because a lot of this is about reinventing yourself. This whole journey that I've been is about reinventing myself. I was a sitcom writer. That's what I was until I started going online and making a podcast and posting every day and now I'm something else.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, it's definitely morphed. So let's talk a bit about that. Right. So we're 104 episodes into the podcast. That's big. I think the statistic I saw a week ago is that the average podcast has six episodes, which means
Michael Jamin:
Most people It's a lot of work. Yeah,
Phil Hudson:
It is. It's a lot of money too. I don't think people recognize that you're investing in editors, you've
Michael Jamin:
Got
Phil Hudson:
People doing graphic design. There's a lot of it. There's the hosting of the site. I mean, every time you do a webinar, a site crashes and I have to freak out
Michael Jamin:
And
Phil Hudson:
Run in and make sure we're back up. And yeah, it's a whole thing. So there's a lot that goes into this, but it's 104 episodes on lots of different topics, all centered around creativity, largely around Hollywood and screenwriting. But I personally, as I've gone through and produced and helped edit some of the episodes, it's very clear to me that you get a lot of joy from having these creative conversations.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. That's what interests me the most. Yeah, and
Phil Hudson:
It's not so much about like, Hey, you're a screenwriter. It's like, hey, you are a creative person
Michael Jamin:
Who's
Phil Hudson:
Putting themselves out there and trying to make something happen,
Michael Jamin:
And
Phil Hudson:
Your audience speaks to this as well. So in the digital marketing space, when we think about this, we think about an avatar and an avatar or a persona. It's your ideal customer. It's the person you're going after. And anytime you're doing marketing, it's a mistake. Or if it's folly, to not do that, you want to understand who you're targeting. And it was very clear two years ago, well, I'm a writer, I'm a TV writer. Let's talk about what I know, which is screenwriting to people who are screenwriters. And I pointed out you should do that because there's a lot of BSS out there.
Michael Jamin:
And
Phil Hudson:
What is your take on that two years into this? What is your take on BSS advice and advice in general? Maybe through the lens of the questions you get asked,
Michael Jamin:
What is my take on it? I feel like you're prompting me to say something. What are you getting at Fell? I don't
Phil Hudson:
Know. I'm not trying to lead the witness. I just want to know what is your take on the marketplace for screenwriters having been immersed on the public, but then you're getting all these questions from people. You did a bunch of live q and as for a year, just talking to people and your following, and there's a series of 10 or 15 questions everybody's asking,
Michael Jamin:
And
Phil Hudson:
It's all pointed towards sell your stuff. You know what those are. So I'm just wondering for you as a showrunner who kind of stepped into the world of what's being taught by the gurus and
Michael Jamin:
By the
Phil Hudson:
Experts, what are you seeing in the marketplace for screenwriters?
Michael Jamin:
One thing I said during the last webinar we did, we do free webinar every three weeks, and I said something that I think a lot of people were astounded by. I said, screenwriting is simple. It's not easy, but it's simple. And I think a lot of people are trying to sell you the complicated version so that you buy more from I'm the only one who can explain it to you and therefore you need me. And I don't know in the writer's room, that's just not how we approach writing simple. I also think there's a lot of bad advice out there, I think. So just be careful. Be careful who you're taking advice from. I don't know, it's a little heartbreaking. Someone posted today, actually, I did a post and someone left a comment saying, everything this guy says me is true because he did coverage in a coverage service. He
Phil Hudson:
Goes, yeah,
Michael Jamin:
People use pay me for coverage. I didn't know anything and I'm telling people what to do. This is a gig this guy picked up. It didn't seem like a lot of people I know, not a lot of people, but I've heard stories of people who've done coverage for a temp job for a month or two and then left because they left feeling a little bit gross about themselves. Why are you paying me? I don't know what I'm talking about. And so they left.
Phil Hudson:
Okay, so this is the world that, so I guess I might've been leading the witness a little bit because my point is, this is the world I understood because prior to meeting you and having the stars align, and we met years ago, and without me knowing who you are, and everybody knows the story by now of how we know each other and became friends, I was very much in that world and I was looking around trying to find that type of feedback and information, and you really shined the light on this for me. That man, there's a lot of people out here pretending like they know what they're talking about.
Michael Jamin:
And
Phil Hudson:
I think you've done a valuable service in these first 100 and 304 episodes of peeling back the curtain, explaining how the process works, educating people. So I just wanted to reiterate, there's a lot of value in what you've done, and that doesn't mean that you're not going to continue to provide value to your listeners who are screenwriters. I think you're just shifting into really none of it all, which is be a creative and do creative things because there's value in the act, not because you're trying to sell a pilot.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. I said something else that people kind of resonated with. Maybe it's worth repeating, and I'll probably say again in my webinars, I say do more of them, but I interviewed, I directed Brian Cranston many years ago on a show called Glen Martin. He was a guest star. It was an animated show, and I directed, it was silly. He played a fun role and was then afterwards I thanked him. We paid him probably 800 bucks. He wasn't doing it for the money. And I thanked him that was scale. And he said, oh, no, no, thank you. And I'm like, thank me. Whatcha talking about you're Brian Cranson. At the time he was doing breaking bed, and he said, it's just nice to have a pallet cleanser. As great as Breaking Bad was in probably my favorite show of all time.
It was so dark that he was living with these negative emotions, anger, fear, jealousy, rage, all that stuff to be in the character. And when you are in that, your mind doesn't know a difference When you're playing this character 12, 14 hours a day in film and you're acting angry and vengeful and all that, whatever those emotions he had to play, your brain doesn't know the difference that whole day. You've been angry and vengeful, and then when you go home, how do you get it out of you? I mean, how do you just experienced all that all day? And it just really made me think about what it's like to be an actor to actually live in that. So he was thanking me because the script that we did was so light and fun. He was like, oh, it's like a, it was fun. It was fun.
Palette, cleanser, which he needed. And then it just got me thinking a lot about just creativity as a whole. And then when people write, when they write their scripts, novels, whatever it is, regardless of whether you sell it or not, you are enjoying that burst of creativity and you're playing out all the characters in your head and your mind doesn't know the difference between you pretending to jump out of a plane and you writing about jumping out of a plane. You're trying to get it all on paper. You're really trying to live it in your heart. And so that I feel Carries with you when you write, regardless of whether you sell it something is a bonus, great, you got money for it. But if you don't sell it, you still get that. You still get that rush, that bonus. And so there's no reason not to write, don't think of it as the pot of gold is in the journey. It's not at the end of the rainbow.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. Let's talk about some of the statistics of the podcast, and I love that. I want to circle back on that topic of the journey, the joys in the journey, not the destination, which I'm sure I'm slaughtering that saying just some things, right? So 104 episodes of the podcast, over 200,000 downloads of the podcast, people from I don't know how many continents, but just basing it off of the last webinar we did this last Saturday. I counted probably 13 countries on about four continents, right? That's a trip. Italy, you've got Europe, you've got people in Asia, Australia, south America, you got Central America, you've got America, you've
Michael Jamin:
Got
Phil Hudson:
Canada. I mean, you've got people, it's a global reach at this point, and you're kind of that figurehead to put that out.
Michael Jamin:
There's so strange.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. So hundreds of thousands of downloads on the podcast, which is incredible and that may not seem like a lot, but for the industry and for your niche,
Michael Jamin:
This
Phil Hudson:
Is really good. These are great numbers for that. We've pulled some stats, and you might know this a little bit better. At one point you were in the top three podcasts on screenwriting, is that right?
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, I was bouncing around and
Phil Hudson:
We fluctuated between 5, 6, 7, 10. Anybody who wants to help support go leave a review, a written review on iTunes, that does help a ton. But yeah, so major reach, major opportunity. When you started this, I wanted to ask, do you remember how many Instagram followers you had when we sat down in your garage and I talked about here's what you need to do to be able to grow your following and do this. Do
Michael Jamin:
You remember how many? I don't remember.
Phil Hudson:
No, because it wasn't something you're paying attention to. I didn't know. But how many Instagram followers do you have now? It was less, would you say less than a thousand? Probably.
Michael Jamin:
Probably close to 160,000 now, I think. Yeah,
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, 160,000.
Michael Jamin:
How
Phil Hudson:
Many days have you missed posting on social
Michael Jamin:
Media? Since we started this two years
Phil Hudson:
Ago,
Michael Jamin:
I promised myself that I was going to post every day. So I post, I would say on average six days a week. So sometimes I take a day off.
Phil Hudson:
So for anybody looking to grow a following, again, Michael's telling you to do this. He's telling you to bring something to the table and you did this and it's brutal. It's not like a 32nd recording.
Michael Jamin:
I
Phil Hudson:
Mean, you communicated to me at one point you're spending 20, 30 minutes on this every single day to get one video out because you're doing multiple takes
Michael Jamin:
And you're
Phil Hudson:
Trying to condense it. You're thinking about it outside of that 30 minutes. You're then doing the technical, and I don't post this for you, you do this, you post it, right? Because you want it to feel authentic. So there's work involved. But again, you're eating your own medicine,
Michael Jamin:
You're
Phil Hudson:
Doing what you tell people to do. You're putting yourself out there in two years down the road, you basically nothing to 160,000 followers on
Michael Jamin:
Instagram. TikTok,
Phil Hudson:
Let's hear it.
Michael Jamin:
Well, TikTok is, I think it's something like 444,000. But that's the thing. It's like I made a promise for myself. It wasn't too ambitious. I didn't say I was going to post five times a day. I was like once a day,
Phil Hudson:
And I think I was advocating for two to four, which is what the experts would tell you to do. And you said, that's not sustainable for me.
Michael Jamin:
No way.
Phil Hudson:
Especially for someone who doesn't want to be in the limelight, which is you very much were like, I don't want to be this person. I'm happy being a writer, but you have this project you want, which is your book
Michael Jamin:
You want. I also think it waters down a little bit the message if you're constantly, I'd rather do quality than quantity. But yeah, all of it. I want to say Phil, everything that I, all the advice that I give people about becoming a screenwriter or whatever, becoming whatever it is you want to be a creator is either advice that I have done or I am currently doing.
Phil Hudson:
So there's no hypocrisy here, which is a really key thing, really key takeaway that people can learn from you beyond the followers. Let's talk about that's led to definitely, and we saw this happening beforehand. You'd post a video about why aren't there cats and TV shows? And Yahoo would pick it up, and then all of the riders on Tacoma FD would just give you crap for it. You popped up on their Yahoo page. But beyond that, and with your status and the work you put in, all of a sudden you become a trustworthy expert in your field because you have a following and you're noticed. It's not that your knowledge are on the subject or your capacity as a writer has changed.
Michael Jamin:
You're
Phil Hudson:
The same capable person and now all of a sudden there's a lot of interest in writing and Hollywood, and you're the guy to go to because you have a following and you're known, right? So this is this secondary effect of I want to get my work out there, so I need followers so that I can have an audience to engage with and potentially prove to people that there's a demand for what I have to put out. And that turned into being covered on Deadline. The Hollywood Reporter, the New York Times variety, and you're in deadline like 17 times, by the way.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah,
Phil Hudson:
Right.
Michael Jamin:
You're
Phil Hudson:
In some local newspapers, Newburyport News, you were with the A R P
Michael Jamin:
C
Phil Hudson:
Tv. Yeah, the seasoned writers of the world, Portland TV had you on for three segments on one of their shows.
Michael Jamin:
And
Phil Hudson:
I think that started a little bit before Good Day Sacramento, multiple times in Yahoo N, our c nl, which is New Zealand, is that right? Nls New Zealand, I think. Yeah. Or the Netherlands. Yeah, Scripps News, the Guardian Newsweek, the Washington Posts News Junkie, right. Newsweek a couple times. And this last weekend you were on C N N.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, it's nuts. They just reach out to me, I'm like, sure, I'll do it. Would not have predicted any of this was going to happen two years ago. No.
Phil Hudson:
So you're not doing this for the fame, you're not doing any of this because you feel like you're going to get something out of it from your writing career. You're doing it because your publisher says, Hey, we don't care how many emails you have on your wife's business list or anything like that, or how many people are interested in your writing?
Michael Jamin:
Which
Phil Hudson:
By the way, prior to even four years ago, 10,000 emails was enough to get a book deal. And now, I mean, I've seen that number of times from people now, it's like, yeah, you need followers putting you on the spot here. So I apologize, but I recall you telling me that you had specific feedback from some of these agents, like, man, Michael Jamin can write, I want to be his friend. Do you remember some of that? Do you want to talk a little bit about what some of those rejection letters were? Oh,
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. I don't know if I have in front of me, but basically it was, oh, actually I do. This
Phil Hudson:
Is not planned, by the way. Michael didn't know I was going to bring any of this up. The whole premise here is I was going to interview Michael and talk about this stuff.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, I got letters from when I was first putting my book out there from publishers. Oh, we love this book. The guy doesn't have a following. They wrote to my agent, do you have anybody who writes like this? Who does have a following? I mean, it was that crazy. They said, platform drives acquisition. I said, what does that mean? You need to have a following. I said, well, what about the strength of the writing? Everyone loved the writing. What about the strength of the writing? Oh, no, no, no. It's about what can we sell? I was like, damn. And that really was a stab in the heart,
Phil Hudson:
And I think for the average creative branching out with just writers, but the average creative one, rejection, litter, and it's like, well, I guess that's not in it. I guess mom was right. I guess dad was right. I guess Billy's dad was, right. It's hard to be a writer. I should give up. And you hear about these people who submit over and over and over again until they finally break through.
Michael Jamin:
And
Phil Hudson:
You took that and said, I don't want to do this thing. I don't want to be a public figure, but I have this creative work that I know people need to read. And it's a personal work that you did on your own. No one paid you to do it. You wrote for
Michael Jamin:
Free.
Phil Hudson:
And then I
Michael Jamin:
Remember, which turn, go ahead. Go ahead.
Phil Hudson:
I was going to say, then I remember I get a text from you and you're like, Phil, any chance you can come over, I want to talk to you about some marketing stuff. I come over, come to your garage. I break your chair. Let's see that
Michael Jamin:
It had already broken. It's already broken, but okay,
Phil Hudson:
Had to replace a chair. And he asked me, what do I need to do? And I just laid out everything I knew, and then we started putting the wheels into motion. That was roughly 25 months ago,
Michael Jamin:
Couple
Phil Hudson:
Months ago.
Michael Jamin:
And it's one of those things like, I didn't want to do it so tough. How badly do you want it? How badly do you want it? And there can be a downside to having whatever you want to call this level of fame. It's internet famous, not famous, but you are putting yourself out there for haters, for trolls, for wackos, all sorts of weirdos. I mean, you wouldn't believe how, I mean, do I have to tell you? There are people on the internet are crazy. So there was that, but I was like, well, this is what it takes now. So it actually made me matter. When the publishers told me this, I was furious. How dare you tell me what I can't do? You don't get to tell me what I can't do. Only I get to do that. And so that just lit a fire under my ass. And then when I
Phil Hudson:
Read this book,
Michael Jamin:
Oh my God, it actually changed me. It's kind of a weird,
Phil Hudson:
I don't really want to plug the book
Michael Jamin:
Very, you can tell
Phil Hudson:
Me I'm
Michael Jamin:
Interested
Phil Hudson:
In this, but you can tell me. I'll
Michael Jamin:
Tell you. It was a very new agey book. And so a lot of the advice was, some of the advice I thought was really good, and some of it was like, I don't know. I think you, you're going out on a limb with this one. But it was one of those things, you take what you want and you leave the rest. And what convinced me was this one passage where he said, you've already gotten what you wanted. It just hasn't happened yet. And I was like, that's it. That's it. I already have it. It just hasn't happened yet. And then I was like, alright, what do I need to do to make it happen?
Phil Hudson:
That's it. Yeah. You remember you reading me that exact quote several times throughout this whole process? Yeah. I
Michael Jamin:
Love that quote. I always tell people on my podcast, whatever here, or I say it on the webinar, I was like, this is what you need to do. If you're willing to do it, then you need a skill. We don't know your level of skill and then you need a little bit of luck, of course. But here's what you can do to increase your odds. Are you willing to do it? And most people aren't so fine.
Phil Hudson:
Well, that's my point about the podcast, right? The average podcast is six episodes,
Michael Jamin:
And
Phil Hudson:
It's because the consistency, the lack of immediate gratification, the, oh, I only got three people to listen to my sixth episode and I put a thousand dollars to get four episodes
Michael Jamin:
Made, or
Phil Hudson:
Whatever it is, that's enough to turn people off. But this is kind of your whole point is, okay, move on. And there's nothing wrong with learning that you're not fit for something. There's something wrong with, there's nothing wrong with saying, Hey, I understand that something I want to do. Maybe doing it the Hollywood way is not the right way for me.
Michael Jamin:
So
Phil Hudson:
Instead, I'm going to go back to just doing it on my own and I'm going to make short films and I'm going to support my local film community. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with recognizing, Hey, I've got family obligations, so I'm not going to be able to move to New York and try to get my art in a gallery. So I'll just paint on the weekends and I'll just take that hour to myself every day to just put in the work on my craft. And you never know what can come from that. But the point is, it's about sticking with what it is. And that's, I think your message that I've heard. I don't know that I want to say that it's evolved. I don't know it's ever evolved. I think it's always been your message, which is if you want to make it happen, you got to make it happen. But the act of doing is enough, right?
Michael Jamin:
As you
Phil Hudson:
Said, the goal, the pot of gold, that the rainbow is not the pot of gold.
Michael Jamin:
It's the
Phil Hudson:
Experiences along the way, finding the pot of gold that are the pot of gold.
Michael Jamin:
But also, it's like when you put energy into something legit energy, not like thinking or dreaming, but when you actually do the work, things have a way of manifesting like, oh, this opportunities have a way of appearing because you've put work into it. Like these various press opportunities that I've done and other things that have sprung out because of that. It's like that's just from doing the energy of posting on social media and just sharing as much knowledge as I can
Phil Hudson:
With zero expectation of getting back. You're planting seeds that hopefully will produce fruit when your book is available and people can buy it on Audible and buy a paperback or a hardcover. And at this point too, so still, you've made the decision not to go with a traditional publisher, even though at this point you have hundreds of thousands of followers.
Michael Jamin:
Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content, and I know you do because you're listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com and now back to what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about?
Phil Hudson:
When you'd ask people, how many followers do I need? They couldn't tell you, tell you. They just knew you needed followers, but they didn't know what the number was.
Michael Jamin:
And then I got resentful, okay, now that I have these followers, why am I cutting you in? Tell me exactly why I'm cutting you in. What exactly do you do? Nothing. They get me in Barnes and Noble, that's it. But people don't buy books at Barnes and Noble. They buy it online. Why am I cutting you in? It made me mad. It made me legit in the beginning. I was like, I need you. And I was like, I don't need you. What do I need you for?
Phil Hudson:
How freeing is that feeling?
Michael Jamin:
It's wonderful. I just got my copy back from I, my copy editor, read the whole thing and whatever, looking for typos and stuff like that. And he loved it. This is a professional. He's like, how do I share? I want to give this to my friends. I was like, oh, thank you. But one of it's like, why am I cutting? It's just like this is the year, it's 2023. It's like, you don't need to ask for permission from these people. The publishing is, the side of the business is very similar to Hollywood in the sense that what do we need these people for? You don't need Hollywood if you want to do, you don't. You just don't. You can do it yourself.
Phil Hudson:
On that note, I went to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu today, and it was a smaller class, middle of the day. There were literally two other people besides me. They're both instructors. It was paying for a private, which was awesome. And in some downtime, I was talking to one of the guys, he's like, yeah, I quit doing Juujitsu for five years. And I was like, oh, why'd you stop? And he's like, well, a couple of years ago, I lost everything I was doing, worked in, I'm an actor and I worked in the industry. And then that started a conversation, and then he started telling me about all the stuff he's doing now. And he's like, we just decided to do it ourselves. We're making short films. We're putting it out there. We're winning tons of awards on this festival circuits. And he's been in Netflix shows, he's been in things. He has an I M D V page, so he's not just some guy. He has talent and skill, and he's even going out and put it in. And I was like, dude, good for you.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. But when you look at the people who break, the people who are break in today, they're all doing what I'm doing. They're people, for the most part, they're not begging for work. They're making work for themselves, and they're making a name for themselves. And so they're building equity in their own name as opposed to knocking on doors and begging.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, I, we've touched on this in a past podcast, but I've heard an agent refer to it as Plus writer plus. What is the plus you're bringing to the table? So maybe it's a following, maybe it's ip. Maybe you wrote a book that's a Amazon bestseller. Maybe it's you worked at the Onion and you're coming in with some clout because you had that experience, right? Maybe you were brought on the Harvard Lampoon, whatever it is, there's a plus and a following is a plus, but that's the value add. It's not enough. And you've told me this before, and I've quoted it often, and I think about it when I write, and this was, man, this was like 7, 6, 7 years ago.
Michael Jamin:
You
Phil Hudson:
Read something I wrote in film school, and it was a speck of a Mr. Robot. And you said, Phil, it's obvious you're a competent writer, and this is really good. But that's the problem. It's not great. And so it's not enough to be good. You have to be great, but you also need something else. And you have to be willing to put that out there and get that work done. To me, I've been very hesitant to grow following because of the public nature of that and some of those things. And you tell me some of the things you have to deal with in your dms and people saying things, anti-Semitic things, all kinds. It's crazy, horrible things.
Michael Jamin:
And
Phil Hudson:
You still stick it out and you do it. But yeah, the plus for me might be my skillset and technology. It might be my ability to run social media pro campaigns to the point where searchlights and this formerly Fox Searchlight, but searchlights people when they meet me are like, man, I need to fill in every project we have. And that's just the hustle and the grind. And you all have that. You listening to this have,
Michael Jamin:
That's exactly right. And Phil, this is what I was going to say as well, is everyone listening to this? Take inventory of what you have. For you, Phil, it's your vast knowledge of digital marketing, but for other people, they have other skills. So take advantage of what you have and then incorporate that towards building your brand or whoever you
Phil Hudson:
Are. Yeah, we might have talked, go ahead.
Michael Jamin:
Well, if you're a truck driver and you're like, what do I got? I drive a long distance truck, dude, you got a lot. Because you have, I dunno, whatever, 10 hours on the road where you're with nothing but your thoughts, turn off the radio. Not a lot of jobs like that where you can actually think and do your job at the same time. Think about something else. And so, yeah, you could write your screenplay, take notes into a recorder, and then when you stop the car later or the truck later, type it up a little bit and make notes. But that's a huge asset you have, which is you have time. You actually have time where you can think and concentrate on something while you do your job. That's a huge
Phil Hudson:
Asset. It's a blue sky time. Blue sky time is hard. It's the space and the stillness that is hard to generate in a chaotic life with family and obligations and work. So if you can find it, and reiterating one of the most powerful notes you've given me, which is, do you listen to audio books or podcasts in the car? And I said, yeah. And you said, don't,
Michael Jamin:
Don't, don't listen to me either. I turned it off your story. Think
Phil Hudson:
About your, yeah, write your
Michael Jamin:
Story. What
Phil Hudson:
Is the problem? I'm trying to solve a huge breakthrough for me in my ability to spend time. I was so busy packing my day with so many obligations,
Michael Jamin:
But then I was
Phil Hudson:
Spending hours in LA traffic doing runs for the show,
Michael Jamin:
And
Phil Hudson:
It's like, oh, here's the space.
Michael Jamin:
So it's
Phil Hudson:
A great note, but everyone has that note. And going back to something you said earlier, luck is not, you talked about everyone needs a little bit of luck, but that definition, and I think I shared this in episode three, luck is where opportunity meets preparation.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, yeah's
Phil Hudson:
The preparation. It's the time spent. It's the other adage, when's the best time to grow a tree 20 years ago,
Michael Jamin:
When's
Phil Hudson:
The second best time? Right now,
Michael Jamin:
You
Phil Hudson:
Don't have a tree, so get out and build a tree. Grow your tree, right?
Michael Jamin:
Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
So yeah, man, kudos to you for putting in the work and the effort. And I'm close enough as your friend, I've been able to see this and see your growth and your push to be able to do this. And I'll also say that even as someone that I considered to be competent, functional adults who's very successful, I've noticed your resilience increased quite a bit over
Michael Jamin:
My resilience.
Phil Hudson:
And that's not saying that you were some pushover or anything. I'm not suggesting that in the slightest, but I've just noticed that your ability to just take the bumps and the bruises of all of the BSS you're dealing with, it's just made you, I think, a little more focused and clear on what you want out of it. And that's why you have this reaction, this is my interpretation to me, why you're having this reaction to the publishers now. It's like, why am I giving you any of this? You didn't fight the fight. I fought the fight. I've been here. I've been in here day in and day out, so screw you. And that's a level of resiliency and confidence. I think that I'm not saying you didn't have that, just
Michael Jamin:
It took a lot for me to get there. It changes things. It took a lot for me to get there, but it was like maybe on the second book, maybe I'll do with them or not, I don't know. But I also know they haven't earned my book. And I've also heard too many stories from friends of mine who have had books traditionally published where the marketing department drops the ball and they promise one thing and then they're awol, and then that's it. Because at that point, you don't have the margin to do any more marketing on your own, so it's dead. And so it was never about the money for me, but I became a little angry as I was building this up. I was like, well, why am I cutting you in? It doesn't make sense to me. What do you bring to the table? Nothing other than Barnes and Noble, which I don't really care about. It's like, okay, sure. If it was 1982, I might worry about that. Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
This is, I think clicking for me. You're familiar with David Goggins, the former Navy Seal?
Michael Jamin:
I don't think so.
Phil Hudson:
He wrote a book called You Can't Hurt Me.
Michael Jamin:
And he
Phil Hudson:
Talks about how he was just abused as a kid by his father.
Michael Jamin:
And
Phil Hudson:
Then what that taught him to do was to be able to just separate his pain. And it created a lot of mental toughness to the point that he was in the us. He was in the Air Force, tried out for Air Force Special Operations. He became a Navy Seal. He went through three hell weeks because he kept getting rolled back for injuries. He had a point where he had fractured legs and he would duct tape them so that they weren't hurt when he was doing runs. I mean, he ran a hundred miler in one day with no preparation to the point that his kidneys were failing. And he just does ultra marathons nonstop. He's just kind of this figure. He's become a bit of a meme with the same younger people, but I've known about him for a few years, and he talks about his book and he's like, I got offered $300,000 from a publisher from my book,
Michael Jamin:
And
Phil Hudson:
I just thought, you haven't been through what I've been through. It is basically what you're saying. It's like, you haven't earned this the way I have. Is my life worth $300,000? And he said, no. So he took all of his savings, which was about 300,000, and he self-published his own book, New York Times bestseller. Did the hardbacks, did the whole thing.
Michael Jamin:
Why didn't it take him 300,000 to make a book? It shouldn't have taken fraction of that.
Phil Hudson:
He did all of the publishing himself. So he didn't publish through a self-publisher like Amazon. He didn't even want to partner with Amazon, so he became his own publisher.
Michael Jamin:
So
Phil Hudson:
He literally printed up hundreds of thousands of copies, and then he leveraged all of his relationships with the Rogans and all these people with these platforms because of the life and the experience that he had, and multiple time bestsellers, millions of copies, sold books,
Michael Jamin:
Two
Phil Hudson:
Books, and he's a millionaire because of that effort. So it's that same resilience mindset I think that I'm hearing from you. And that's probably why I made that connection
Michael Jamin:
Just like, screw people. I'll do it myself. I don't need you. That's how I feel. Whatever, I'll do it myself. Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
That's awesome. Before we talk about the new podcast, I just wanted to see, are there any takeaways for you over the last year? Are there anything that really stood out moments or conversations we've had with you, with other people, us on the podcast or with other students in your course?
Michael Jamin:
If you listen to some of those other episodes where I'm interviewing people, you'll hear various versions of the same story that I tell their own, which is kind of like, screw it. I'll just do it my own. It is just people. The reason why people are, I interview, I guess, successful people, and the reason why they're successful is because they haven't quit yet. That's it. They just didn't get around to quitting. And so I think that's what it is. Until you quit, you're just a success. That hasn't happened yet. It just hasn't happened yet,
Phil Hudson:
Which is why you don't quit.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
Anything else stand out to you?
Michael Jamin:
I don't know. Can you think of something?
Phil Hudson:
The one lingering thought that I have is I think that people, you set a really good example for people on your social media about how to handle naysayers
Michael Jamin:
Because
Phil Hudson:
You get a lot of negativity, and you talked about this, you could go after them. You're a professional comedy
Michael Jamin:
Writer. Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
They don't stand a chance. And I have witnessed just the witty quickness, the decimation of a soul in a writer's room, all in love,
Michael Jamin:
But
Phil Hudson:
The capability of a professional comedy writer to just tear someone down. And it's almost like with great power comes great responsibility. That
Michael Jamin:
Cliche
Phil Hudson:
From Spider-Man, it's like you opt to take the high road, which is,
Michael Jamin:
And I'm always torn by that. Sometimes I'm like, I can easily take you down. And sometimes I do. If it's warranted, if they come out with me a certain amount of energy, then I can match the energy. But I'm torn. I also feel like, well, it's not enough that I, on one hand, I tell people I'm a comedy writer, but unless I show it every once in a while, people are, how are they going to believe me?
Phil Hudson:
And so
Michael Jamin:
It's a line that I dance. I dance, it is like I don't want to be mean, but I also,
Phil Hudson:
It's not negative energy. It's not done with maliciousness. It's done playfully. But I think it just, you stand up for yourself when it's appropriate.
Michael Jamin:
And
Phil Hudson:
Again, that speaks to some of that resiliency that again, you could decimate 'em,
Michael Jamin:
You retrain yourself. I'm totally pulling punches, believe me when I'm pulling, because sometimes I've got a bunch of clips I haven't posted yet. I write them. I'll spend a half hour on 'em, and then I'll sit on it. I don't feel, and then I look at the next day, I go, oh, I can't put that on. It's funny, but it's just too mean. That's
Phil Hudson:
The adage of when you're at work and you want to send that email, don't send
Michael Jamin:
It.
Phil Hudson:
Write it out. Don't
Michael Jamin:
Send it. Get
Phil Hudson:
It out of your system. Move on.
Michael Jamin:
Right. I took a guy apart the other day, I just haven't shared it, so screw it. That guy,
Phil Hudson:
You don't even share those with me.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. But also I also do, and I made a post about this. It was like, how do I want to show up every day? How do I want to be seen? And I don't want be the mean guy. I don't want to be a bully. So I'm allowed to think my negative thoughts. I don't always have to share them.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, yeah. No, and that's a valuable lesson for people in a world where, as I've often said, you remove the opportunity to get punched in the face for anything you say or do, and all of a sudden people start speaking up a little bit more than they probably should. And I'm not advocating for violence,
Michael Jamin:
But
Phil Hudson:
Even a verbal punch to the face can often be enough. And
Michael Jamin:
It's
Phil Hudson:
Pretty easy in our society to just sit behind your keyboard
Michael Jamin:
And
Phil Hudson:
Zero consequences for what you say and do. I call this out? I call this out in our webinars while you're talking, Cynthia, your wife is doing a great job of just getting questions, and I'm just kind of checking the chat to see what people are talking about. And man, there's some trolls rolling into your webinar too.
Michael Jamin:
Thank you. I never see them. Do you block 'em? What do you do?
Phil Hudson:
No, no. People take care. They take care of it. And we can talk about another experience we had where someone went after me on a podcast too, nepotism, do you remember that? Called me out for nepotism
Michael Jamin:
And
Phil Hudson:
All that.
Michael Jamin:
And
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, your listeners had my back and they went after 'em. And it is just a very stark difference between the community you've cultivated of people who are just respectful, sincere creatives looking to break in and chase their dreams and all the people who say they want to do it and are not putting in the
Michael Jamin:
Work and the nepotism on your part, to be clear, I suppose that was when you were in and out of foster care as a child. Is that when you experienced all the nepotism?
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, it might've been that. It might've been when I was in the group homes. It could have been when I lived in my aunt and uncle's house and I couldn't do sports because I had to work
Michael Jamin:
Effectively
Phil Hudson:
Full-time in high school. Could have been any of those times. Could have been
Michael Jamin:
Of those times. Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
But your point to that was you knew one person tangentially through some girl when you moved here, there wasn't even an nepotism for you. And I knew you, and yeah, I've been blessed to have that opportunity, but we've seen enough people come and go, you have to earn it. Right?
Michael Jamin:
It's so funny when I tell that story. When I moved to Hollywood, I knew no one in Hollywood, but a girl I was friendly with in high school, she was a year younger than me. I found out that her brother was living in Hollywood and was trying to do what I did, which is bright sitcom writer. And so I called him
Phil Hudson:
Up, and then
Michael Jamin:
We wound up becoming roommates. But then when I tell that story, people go, oh, so you did know someone. It was like, I knew some guy.
Phil Hudson:
He was
Michael Jamin:
Just as unsuccessful
Phil Hudson:
As
Michael Jamin:
Me, and we
Phil Hudson:
Became
Michael Jamin:
Roommates. He was just a couple years older than me. So I guess that's how I knew someone.
Phil Hudson:
But that highlights this thing. I was going to say, and it's just a quote that stuck with me for years. I think it comes from Jim Rowan, which is there's two ways to have the tallest building. One is to build the tallest building,
Michael Jamin:
Which
Phil Hudson:
You have done the other ways to tear everyone else's building down.
Michael Jamin:
And
Phil Hudson:
So if you're afraid to pursue your craft, sometimes tearing everyone else down is a bit easier than facing the empty page or the blank canvas. It's
Michael Jamin:
A lot easier. It's a lot easier.
Phil Hudson:
And the high road, which
Michael Jamin:
You've
Phil Hudson:
Been an example for
Michael Jamin:
An
Phil Hudson:
Exemplar, is just put your head down, do the work, provide value,
Michael Jamin:
And
Phil Hudson:
Then the benefits will come eventually.
Michael Jamin:
And I really hope this episode doesn't seem like we're just patting me on the back. I hope it serves be to get you guys to do what I'm doing in your own way for whatever you want to do.
Phil Hudson:
And Michael saying that, because Michael didn't know what I was going to talk about or bring up here, this is me bringing this up because these are the things that I've observed as your friend, as a co-host on the podcast, but also just as someone who's just trying to do the same thing that everybody who listens to your podcast is trying
Michael Jamin:
To do,
Phil Hudson:
Which is break in and chase their dreams.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, I'm exactly like you guys. Only, I'm doing it for writing. That's all for publishing,
Phil Hudson:
Which speaks to the transition to the podcast, which is the title of the podcast. What the hell is Michael? What
Michael Jamin:
The hell is Michael Jamin talking about?
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. What the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? At this point, you can see the cover has changed, so it's going to be the same feed. You don't need to go resubscribe. None of the old episodes are rebranding. They'll still be live and available the way they were. But it's just a shift into talking about creative things. And I think you got some cool stuff to kind of display. I guess people might've already heard the intro.
Michael Jamin:
Oh, we could do that. We
Phil Hudson:
Put on this episode. But you want to talk more about that, the podcast and impetus for the change and why we were here?
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Well, there was that. The new music is by my friend Anthony Rizzo, who did all the music. He was the composer on Marin. It wasn't my friend. Then. I just met him on Marin. And then he also did the music for my book, a paper orchestra, which would be dropping hopefully this winter and keep pushing it
Phil Hudson:
Back. Yeah, we haven't talked about that. You've put in a ton of energy and effort into recording the audio book and making it your live events, which I wanted to point out part of this transition, and you've always talked about how when you're in a writer's room, you end up acting out the parts, like when you're doing Hank on King of the Hill, you do Hank's voice and you kind of mimic him. You're doing Bobby, you do it. So you've always been a performer, but I don't know if you've been a performer in the sense that you are with a paper orchestra where
Michael Jamin:
It's
Phil Hudson:
A stage show and you're there and you're being vulnerable and emotional, and you're making it a thing, and you're practicing and you're working with talented coaches like your wife, Cynthia, who is a very talented
Michael Jamin:
Actress,
Phil Hudson:
And Jill Sch, who is a legendary actress, and you're investing in all this coaching to put on a presentation or performance for people. And I have not heard audio book, but what I understand is it's going to be very similar experience to come into a live show.
Michael Jamin:
I think so. And it'll be a little more intimate than a live show in your ear because it's an audio book. I'm much closer to your brain, and I want to talk to more
Phil Hudson:
Creators
Michael Jamin:
Like this. But what I'm personally inspired by right now, and that maybe it'll change in five years, but I'm inspired by people who tell and perform their own stories. To me, there's something, so you're an actor. You have to be a writer and a performer at the same time, as opposed to doing something like creating something. That's fine. But when you're telling your own story, it's like, man, you're really putting yourself out there. And I think when I see people do it, I'm like, all right, that's interesting. Maybe I'll change in five years. So I mean, standups do that, but they don't do it. They're going for the laugh usually. They're not usually going deeper than that, which is fine that when you go into a comedy club, that's what you expect. So that's kind of what I've been exploring and being motivated by.
Phil Hudson:
That's another Michael Jainism that stood out to me. I wrote it down when you were talking earlier, go there. You have to be willing to go there. And we talked about people who are not willing to go there. And we've heard people, other writers say, I'm not willing to go there. And you've called it out privately to me, did you hear that person? Did you hear what they said? And you have to be willing to go there. For a long time, I wasn't. And through your help, I've been able to do that. But yeah, you're talking to people who go there.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, that's the job. If you don't want the job, find another job. It's
Phil Hudson:
Emotional vulnerability
Michael Jamin:
And
Phil Hudson:
Being willing to put yourself out there and not just on a social media perspective, but truly emotionally vulnerable in your stories and what you've called mining your life for stories and putting that out there.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Yeah. To me, that's the exciting stuff. And I didn't invent this, so it's just when I see others do it, I'm like, wow, why I should be doing that too.
Phil Hudson:
So obviously I'm not necessarily a co-host of this anymore. I'm still helping produce the thing. We're still making sure that that's
Michael Jamin:
How hear a lot the technical
Phil Hudson:
Side. I'll still be popping in on podcast episode.
Michael Jamin:
We'll still be talking about screenwriting, I'm sure.
Phil Hudson:
And I had this cool experience, and I don't think we've talked about this when I was on touring with the broken lizard guys doing their social media, just sitting there talking to them and seeing this rabid fan base of people who just love them from this thing that they created. When they did it, they put themselves out there.
Michael Jamin:
And
Phil Hudson:
It really lit that our tour spirit I had back in 2000 8 0 9, when I was really dedicating myself to screenwriting. And I have actually been working on a feature that I would like to star in and direct and do that whole thing on the indie level. Just now you talking, just an exercise. What about
Michael Jamin:
As a short first, why not doing it as a short
Phil Hudson:
Could definitely do that. Yeah. Why?
Michael Jamin:
To
Phil Hudson:
Me, there's a feature in there for sure that I want to write and just get out of me, but definitely worth doing a short, yeah,
Michael Jamin:
Go watch as we talk about this. Go watch on Vimeo, I think Thunder Road, that scene we talk about, go watch the church, the Churching. That was a feature, but that scene stands on its own. If you just saw that scene, you would've thought, oh, it's a short, I thought it was a short, I thought it was a great short, I didn't realize it was part of a bigger, so do something like that. And then when people see that and they're blown away, you'll say, oh, well, there's more to come. Just I need you to donate $5,000. And then they pay for the rest.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. Yeah. That's great advice. Great advice. So yeah. So anyway, this beautiful shift in the tide of creativity and your shift, and that rubs off. What can we expect from the podcast in terms of guests you're interviewing? What does that look like for you?
Michael Jamin:
I reach out, I got to continue to do more. I'm doing another one tomorrow. I'll be reaching out. These guys really inspired me. So there's a movie that I saw on Netflix many years ago, I dunno, maybe five years ago from these guys called The Minimalists. So I reached out to one of them. He's going to be on the Tomorrow, and they're fascinating. It is.
Phil Hudson:
Joshua Fields Millburn, and
Michael Jamin:
He's the one coming on, and he's gracious enough to come on, and I'm sure he's going to think we're going to talk about the message. And the message is very important. The message is how you can live, how you can have more in your life with less how you don't need to buy this, how you'll be happier if you get rid of that, and great message. But he's in for a surprise because we'll talk about that. But I really want to talk about how he created himself, how he, okay, then how did you sell a show on Netflix? Okay, now what is it like to be this person? Because he wasn't, he was just some guy who's middle management before he did this, and now he's the guy who has this message. Even though the message has already been said before by other people, he still put a different spin on it to me. And I find that inspiring, that somebody who invented himself, what does that feel like? What are the insecurities that come with that? What is this new fame ish thing that he has? How does that feel? How does he continue to push himself? I don't know. I'm looking forward to the interview. I'm curious to hear, and I bet you he hasn't spoken about that.
Phil Hudson:
That's awesome.
Michael Jamin:
I did an interview, I dunno if it, no, it hasn't aired yet. The guy I follow, a prop master that I follow on TikTok named Scott and Scott Reeder, and he's great.
Phil Hudson:
Great. I follow him too.
Michael Jamin:
He's great. He just talks about all the props and how he makes these props, and we spoke a little bit about that, but we were more talking about how he invented himself now. And halfway through the interview, he says to me, this is the best interview anyone's ever done, because I didn't really care about the boring stuff. I want to know how he invented himself. What all of us, I think are trying to do right now. That's part of Before we Die, we, that's, who else can we be before we die?
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, that's profound, man. I'm excited. I've loved listening to the interviews you've already done on Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm looking forward to those.
Michael Jamin:
It's
Phil Hudson:
Good stuff, man. I'm just really pumped for this new stage. And again, I do think it just speaks a little bit more to who you've become because not that you've outgrown yourself as a writer, it's just you've evolved a bit as a person into being a bit more than that. And I hesitate to even say that too, because I know this is who you are. This is who you have been.
Michael Jamin:
But this is what writers too, I think it's like, all right, what else can we explore here? That's part of the fun. That's the fun part being, being a writer is that you get car, right? You get carte blanche to try new things because maybe I can write about this worst case scenario. I can make a story from it.
Phil Hudson:
I was about to say, that's advice you've given me multiple times, which is it's a write-off. You can go take a
Michael Jamin:
Basket weaving class,
Phil Hudson:
Right? Go take a
Michael Jamin:
Dance class. Why?
Phil Hudson:
It's an experience. Go take an acting class. And I remember you did a workshop in Acting for Life and it was a comedy workshop and you were kind enough to invite me to attend that. And I was already studying with Cynthia and Jill at the time there. And yeah, I remember you just putting out that same thing. It's great. You're studying acting, it's going to make you a better writer.
Michael Jamin:
And you've
Phil Hudson:
Given that advice on the podcast too. So it's really fascinating to me. And I'm just kind of realizing this in this moment, man, I thought I was getting all this great free advice that was particular to Phil Hudson and now you're just
Michael Jamin:
Giving it to
Phil Hudson:
Everybody, man.
Michael Jamin:
Everyone. I hope so. I'd like to try to do, we'll see if I can make that happen where I go to, that's something I'm going to try to make happen where I can tour to different cities, put on a show, and then the next day maybe a writing seminar afterwards in that city so I can to help offset some of my costs. And then we could just talk about writing that day. We have a little writing workshop or something, so maybe I'll try to do that.
Phil Hudson:
God, that's awesome. It's the first I've heard of that. That sounds like a great,
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, it's just so many things that have to happen before that. I got so much on my plate right now. I can't even think about that. But we were talking about that. Wouldn't that be interesting?
Phil Hudson:
It's a great idea. Well, I imagine Cynthia will be with you.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, yeah,
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. And that's awesome. Now you're getting someone who's been on Seinfeld and the friends and just all
Michael Jamin:
These
Phil Hudson:
Great, I mean very talented, very, and I will say not only talented, but very perceptive,
Michael Jamin:
Right? Oh yeah.
Phil Hudson:
And I think I've shared this on here too, but there was this moment where I just couldn't get there. I just couldn't get there. And Jill's just saying, what are you feeling? And I
Michael Jamin:
Was like, I don't know.
Phil Hudson:
And she turns to the class and she's like, what is everyone? What's he feeling? Everyone's like, he's mad. And I didn't even realize I was mad. And then the next class, I'm struggling in this scene. And then Jill's like, what are you struggling with? What's going on? I was like, I don't know. And then Cynthia's like, is it the intimacy? Is he having trouble with the intimacy of the scene? And I was like, holy shit. Yeah. I think that's what it is. I am not willing to go here. And I had to work through all that stuff. So she's just so perceptive and so kind. You can't even be not mad. She's calling you out because it's done with so much love and compassion. It's a beautiful thing.
Michael Jamin:
We've had these moments, by the way, when she directs me from my audio book where the outtakes are not pretty, the outtakes are me yelling.
Phil Hudson:
But
Michael Jamin:
It's funny, one of the
Phil Hudson:
Stories in my book
Michael Jamin:
Is called The House on Witherspoon Street where I'm a kid in college. They're all true stories. And it builds to me giving an on-air interview to this woman who's this eccentric woman who had a talk show. She was lovely, but she's larger than life and it's in the book. And then my editor said yesterday, he goes,
Phil Hudson:
Do you
Michael Jamin:
Happen to have that interview? And I was like, well, actually, I think I do. And I found the cassette from 30 years ago. And so we'll put it in the bonus section of the book where now you can hear me, you can hear me as a 19 year old or whatever it was. Has that scene unfolded? That's like
Phil Hudson:
Steve LE's break dancing
Michael Jamin:
Commercial, but it's stranger than that because you'll know now what I was thinking in my head
Phil Hudson:
While That's awesome.
Michael Jamin:
While it was going on. That's a
Phil Hudson:
Great point.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, it's a fun little thing.
Phil Hudson:
It's cool stuff, man. I love it. I'm pumped. It's a good shift for you. I think it's a good shift for your audience. I think it opens it up a little bit. Hope it's a little bit more accessible to your audience. Your audience is far more than just writers. It's
Michael Jamin:
Great. I don't want to just, when it called screenwriters, you hear this. Well, does that mean I don't want to be a screenwriter? Well, okay, but do you want to do anything creative? Yeah, sure I do. I want to write a poem. Okay, good. Now listen, you can, the
Phil Hudson:
Other thing is how does this apply to novel writing? How does this apply to playwriting? And we have a testimonial video from a guy who does financial writing, and he took your course and he's like, it made my financial writing better.
Michael Jamin:
He's
Phil Hudson:
Able to tell a better story about
Michael Jamin:
Finances in a finance journal. And stories are what gets people hooked. Whatever you want to sell, sell it with a story. People are interested in hearing a story very
Phil Hudson:
Often. That's you,
Michael Jamin:
Right?
Phil Hudson:
It's you in the room, it's you idea, it's your
Michael Jamin:
Acting,
Phil Hudson:
It's your
Michael Jamin:
Art.
Phil Hudson:
All of that is story.
Michael Jamin:
By the way, I hope to do some more public speaking. So if anyone has a,
Phil Hudson:
It works at a corporation
Michael Jamin:
And you want me to do public speaking, we have a number of talks,
Phil Hudson:
Keynotes. We can talk about that, Michael. I do a lot of that with some clients.
Michael Jamin:
Oh really? Oh good. We'll talk about that. Keynote
Phil Hudson:
Marketing. Yeah. Well, good stuff. Anything you want to add? I mean, we had talked, I think, a little bit about potentially putting the music on. I think everybody's already heard the music on. We've heard some of it. It's
Michael Jamin:
Funky. Do you
Phil Hudson:
Want to play it? It's a
Michael Jamin:
Funky, let's play some of it. Okay,
Phil Hudson:
Let's do it. So you're going to share it with me, and then we'll have Dallas cut in the actual track. Dallas is our editor. We'll have him put in the track so that you can hear it raw, not through Zoom.
Michael Jamin:
Here's my
Phil Hudson:
Theme song as composed
Michael Jamin:
By Anthony Rizzo, who's the composer from Marin, who he also did the score for my audiobook. Yeah,
Phil Hudson:
It was just
Michael Jamin:
Fun. And I dunno, it kind of puts a smile
Phil Hudson:
On my face. Makes me want to hear more. This is a random thought, I don't know have thought about in a long time, but I was driving to Utah one time and I stopped at a gas station in Nevada and there was a song playing and it was that song Everybody walked the Dinosaur.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was not was I had that album.
Phil Hudson:
Do you remember this? I put it on my social media and you commented and talked about that song.
Michael Jamin:
No, I don't. But no one's ever heard of was, not was, but Don was the guy who wrote it.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, that song was on a gas station pump. And I posted it and I was like, what a jam. You were like, yeah, I know who that is. You talked about
Michael Jamin:
Was not, was
Phil Hudson:
Got that same vibe. It's good. Good stuff.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Alright, well, is that it, Phil? Are we done? Did we hit it?
Phil Hudson:
I think so. I mean,
Michael Jamin:
Yeah,
Phil Hudson:
Just reiterating to people, you're still providing free screenwriting advice, free writing advice and creative advice through your newsletter, the watch list. You can go to michaeljamin.com/newsletter to access that or iwatchlist your upcoming shows You'll tour. Your tour will be coming up at some
Michael Jamin:
Point. Go to michaeljamin.com/upcoming. And a lot of this, by the way, I have to thank just the people who, my listeners, people who comment and follow me on social media, like, wow, I'm not even a writer, but all this applies to what I could do at work. I was like, oh, I didn't know that. Well, thank you. I'm glad it does for you. So that kind of feedback helps me. Yeah,
Phil Hudson:
Well, awesome stuff. We're not getting rid of the screenwriting course, we're not getting rid of any of that stuff that's still there @michael jamin.com. Go sign up, free post on
Michael Jamin:
Social for free, free webinar michaeljamin.com/webinar. We got a new one. Yeah, we're
Phil Hudson:
Always
Michael Jamin:
Changing things up, so come see
Phil Hudson:
Us there.
Michael Jamin:
Phil's there as well.
Phil Hudson:
I am there messing stuff up on the technical
Michael Jamin:
Side, so thank
Phil Hudson:
You're subscribe. It's my fault there's a lot of any technical issues, just blame 'em on me.
Michael Jamin:
But we're working through 'em. Well, Michael,
Phil Hudson:
It has been a pleasure to do this podcast with you for two years. Man, I can't believe that just went by. I've had two
Michael Jamin:
Kid and a half. Phil, thank you for all your help doing this and your support. So yeah, I mean this is, you've been incredibly helpful,
Phil Hudson:
My honor, man. And looking forward to this next stage of
Michael Jamin:
Your
Phil Hudson:
Journey here too. It was great.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Alright buddy. Alright everyone, thank you again for listening. Start Funking out. Let's hit that funky beat.
Phil Hudson:
Is that the new outro? Not stop, keep
Michael Jamin:
Riding. Yeah, it'll be what?
Phil Hudson:
Funk out. Keep that funky funk out. Get the funk
Michael Jamin:
Out. Get the funk out. Alright, everyone, get the funk out. All right, thanks so much. See you. So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin is talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars@michaeljamin.com/webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media Phil aHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.
On this week's episode, I talk about all of the different types of "producers" there are working in Hollywood as well as what some of their specific responsibilities might be. Tune in for much more!
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Michael Jamin:
I would prefer to do another show like that as opposed to a big budget show faster. Let's shoot it faster. I just like it better.
Phil Hudson:
Buddy. System was pretty quick too. I mean, we shot the In six
Michael Jamin:
Weeks. Yeah, buddy System was equally fast. And even still, it feels when you're on set, it's like, oh, this is so boring. Even still, it takes a long time to get each side.
You're listening to screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.
Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin, back with Phil Hudson for another episode of Screenwriters. Need to hear this. At least until we rename the podcast. We're toying with that idea to open it up. But I don't have an idea yet. I don't have a name yet. So for now, this is what we're going with everyone. That's
Phil Hudson:
News to people. I don't think people know that
Michael Jamin:
Yet. No, it's news. You're leaking. A
Phil Hudson:
Little hint.
Michael Jamin:
I'm leaking a hint and it's because I want to open up the conversations a little to broaden out. So it's not just about screenwriting, but also about people who are interested in the arts and reinventing themselves and just putting it out there. So we're going to hang on to that, but for now, we're going to keep talking about this subject, but we will, I'll still talk about screenwriting, so don't want to panic. I'm still going to talk about screenwriting. I just want to open up to more inspirational art stuff. And
Phil Hudson:
I think for you, two years into the podcast, it started as a thing during Covid to help people out with this specific space. But your social media has grown to include all creatives and a large percentage of the content that people are consuming on your social media. Forgive me for calling it content, but that is being consumed by people who are more in the creative fields. We have people who've signed up for your screenwriting course who are financial analysts, and they write about finance and they talk about the value of story and story structure. We got artists, novelists, all kinds of people. And so yeah, this makes sense to me, especially as you've kind of outgrown the persona of just being a TV writer and being more of a creative inspirational figure in the space.
Michael Jamin:
So that's what the plan is. But until then, we're sticking with this name. But okay, everyone, so today I thought we would talk about the title of today's episode is What the Hell Is a Producer? Because no one knows. It's like one of these terms in Hollywood that everyone, it can mean so many different things. It's unclear exactly what a producer does. And I think everyone, when I post on social media, everyone gets it wrong. So we know what a writer does. The writer writes, we know what an actor does. We think we know what a director does, but often people get that wrong. But that could be another episode. But as far as a producer, it means so many different things. So I'm going to break it down and you're going to help me with this. Phil. First we're going to take a step back. So right now the Writer's Guild is on strike against the producers, the Alliance of Motion picture and television producers or the A M P T P. So that's very misleading. It sounds like we are striking against producers, but we're not in this sense. The producers are the studios. So think about Warner Brothers, universal, Sony, Netflix,
Phil Hudson:
Amazon, yeah, apple.
Michael Jamin:
So they produce film intelligence shows. So we are striking against the producers of film and television shows, but we are not striking against film and television show producers, which would be, I know that's confusing P G
Phil Hudson:
A, right? Is that where you're going? Right.
Michael Jamin:
So that would be, when you think of the P G A, sometimes you watch a film and it says someone's name, the P G a, that's the Producer's Guild of America. So those are people who are producers. They work on the show or the movie that's being made. So anytime you have a film or a television show, you have a production staff and they are there every day and they are so on a TV show in particular, the writers will dream up a sequence or a scene or whatever it is, and then they'll sit down with the producers whose offices are right next door and say, can we make this happen? Your job? We thought of it, but now you have to actually make it happen. And sometimes they say, we can't. You have to. You're going to break the bank. And sometimes they say, okay, we can do this. And those people are producers. Okay, but that's in tv. I'm going to talk more about TV first.
Phil Hudson:
And there's a note too here too about the P G A, I don't know if you're going to touch on this, but they're not a union that is basically a group of people who have kind of unified or they've basically agreed to be an association, but because they are technically employers, they cannot unionize.
Michael Jamin:
Oh, really? And so are you in the P G A?
Phil Hudson:
I think I'm eligible, but I have not joined. I've not pursued it, but it's definitely open.
Michael Jamin:
But don't you get your don't they help provide health insurance,
Phil Hudson:
I believe is the D G A and P G A. They've pooled. So basically these producers have agreed to pay into these funds and do these things to provide pension and healthcare for their members. But the difference is they are not effectively a union. I think legally they cannot be a union. So the term guild can be a bit confusing, right, because there's the W G A, which is a union, not
Michael Jamin:
Really, I don't think WGA is considered a union. I think it's considered.
Phil Hudson:
I thought they were. I thought that's why they're able to strike because they are unionized. No
Michael Jamin:
Thinks
Phil Hudson:
The collective bargaining is by Definit definition of union. I thought there's a great point.
Michael Jamin:
I thought there. There's some what add. I thought there's some differences, slight differences, but okay, so now we're going to talk about producers
Phil Hudson:
Of, it's two different unions. So it's the east and the west combined forces. So there're two different unions that are working together
Michael Jamin:
In what? Oh
Phil Hudson:
Yes. So the writer's Guild East is a union and the Roger's Guild West is a union. And then they join and that's the guild. That's what they represented, two different unions.
Michael Jamin:
So when we talk about producers on a TV show, this is so unclear and I'm going to try to clear it up and it's going to be still confusing. So producers, like I said, on a TV show, their job is to, for the most part, make it happen. Make whatever we dream of, make it happen. So if we set a scene that takes place in the amusement park, the producer's like, okay, how are we going to shoot there? How are first we got to rent out of Ineson Park, we have to move the cameras there, we have to license, have to buy the space out. And that's producing it. If you want special effects, they're going to have to make sure all those people are there on the set that day. They coordinate the whole damn thing. And there's many different levels of producers, the line producers, the one who deals with mostly making sure we're on budget, making sure. Then there's also like you are, you're an associate producer. What's your job as an associate producer?
Phil Hudson:
So the saddle associate producer came up this season. It was recommended by an actual producer, savvy Kathy or Kathy, I always mess up her last name, but S'S awesome. She's a 24 and they were trying to figure out a title for my new role. And there are specific titles they can't use because they are managed by union. So facilities manager and things like that. And in basically live tv, anyone who manages the stages or the set or controls things on the ground, that's an associate producer title. So she's the one who encouraged everyone to give me that title. My role was very much, I was an assistant to the producers. I kind of handled anything that they wanted to delegate down. I had their authority to make things happen. My first day I fired somebody because that person was breaking rules and I had to do that. I handled plumber issues, I handled facility issues. I was in charge of making sure that everything got cleaned. If someone needed something, it was my responsibility to make sure that that got coordinated with the production office. So it was basically a liaison between the producers and the other people and the rest of the set. One thing that I found funny is there's this, I might've talked about it on the podcast and forgive me if it's redundant, but there, do you know who Jordan is on Conan Conan show? He's one of his associate producer?
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
So his skit came out of, I believe this came out hearing it from Conan. It came out of the last writer strike where they didn't have anything and one of the other producers was like, Jordan, you have such interesting interactions with him, maybe you should just record those. They're just fascinating to watch. So he became a figure on the show and he had Jordan on a podcast and Conan's like, what is your title? He's like, well, I've had many titles. He's like, but what is your title currently? And he's like, it is associate producer. And Conan goes, if there has ever been a more meaningless title in all of television, it's associate producer. I was like, it feels accurate. It's an honorary title. You get respect on set, people respect what you say, but it doesn't really come with many perks.
Michael Jamin:
Sometimes it might just be a catchall for something that they don't know what to, I started my career as a joke writer on the Mike and Maddie show, which is a morning TV show. I was a writer, so I used to write jokes, but they didn't want to pay me. If they had called me a writer, they would've had to pay me Writer's Guild minimum. And so instead they didn't want to give me that title, they just called me a segment producer instead. And so they could pay me less. But my job, I suppose, was producing segments of it's morning TV show. And so the segment I was in charge of was the morning chat when the hosts are just talking from the camera and they're making jokes about stuff. And then also sometimes we would do remote segments. We did one thing where Dr. Ruth was giving them a tour of some sex store. And so I was there on site just pitching jokes for the sex toys. So I was a producer, but did I really know how to produce? Nah, it's really rare. No,
Phil Hudson:
But that's a very typical thing. Even from cable shows, morning shows on cable, those are producers. You have producer titles. So my friend's sister was dating a producer on the Late show and he was a producer, but what was he? He was effectively a joke writer. He wrote jokes for the show and he was responsible. But I know people in Utah and New Mexico who are producers and their segment producer, they go out and they like, we're interviewing the person who makes the largest cookie in America. They make sure it gets done. That's it right
Michael Jamin:
Now, here's where it gets a little confusing in tv. If you watch a TV show, you'll often see many titles that have the word producer in it, producer, supervising producer, executive producer. Many of those people are just mid to high level writers who don't really have the same functions. They don't do the same jobs as the producers do who work next door who actually make it happen. So is no overlap in the job responsibilities, but the job responsibility of say, executive producer who is probably also the showrunner would be, and also maybe some lower producers like supervising producer. You might be in charge of casting, you might have some editing responsibilities. You also have to know how when you write the whole season, you often will say, is this producible? And that comes with experience. So for example, if I was on a show and we're breaking episodes one through 10 and I see too many locations, it's my job as let's say a co-executive producer to say, we don't need all these, we can combine scenes with locations here. We can be more efficient, even though I'm not actually producing it. I'm wearing my producer's hat that we say.
So just so know that it's not all producers on a show or actually on the production side we're also, yeah,
Phil Hudson:
I had a friend who was an actor and she made a comment once, she's like, all those producers at the front of a show are just writers, don't you? And I was like, that sounds great. I would like that. But the term for co ep, which is what you and your writing partner are on Tacoma FD have been many times, my understanding of this is you're effectively qualified to run the show and often need to do that when the executive producer is off on set or dealing with the casting thing or managing calls with them. So you're running the room, you're making sure it happens. And I've heard that term referred to as the strong number two.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, the number two. Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. So you're the boss, you're there to make sure that the ship stays going. I mean, yeah, it's basically the showrunner's, the captain, you're the first mate you take over when they're need arrest or break and you have the same authority to get things done
Michael Jamin:
Basically. So those are our producers. Now there's a common misconception that sometimes people think in TV that producers are the people who raise the money, they put together the money for the project. I want to assure you, we don't touch a nickel. It's like we don't spend our own money. The studios are the ones who are in charge of raising the money. It's their money. So we never open our wallets only in rare exceptions. So for example, I've been involved in projects where someone might be an executive producer and they may put together let's say 10 or $15,000 to shoot a presentation, which is like a down and dirty pilot, a cheap pilot just as a sales tool, but they won't spend a lot of money. It's like very little. They're not investing. A TV show might cost a million dollars to shoot, we're talking about 10 or 15 just to put it on its feet just to show people kind of what it looks like. And this doesn't even happen a lot for the most part in tv executive producers are not in charge of raising money. They don't touch it. We work for the studios. The studios, it's their money that we're playing with. So get that out of your head. It's not a money position in television.
Phil Hudson:
And I think this is another definition thing too, where it can also be confusing because there is often another executive producer who is that guy who is doing that at the studio. They get that title, right?
Michael Jamin:
Well, they don't usually get the title. They don't usually get the title at the studio. So that's the catch. They don't get a title. They work for the studio.
Phil Hudson:
I thought I've seen, I think
Michael Jamin:
They might have a production deal, which is a pod. So for example, often this is why it's so confusing. Often a producer will have what we call a shingle at a studio. So the studio Warner Brothers is paying their overhead. They give 'em a pod, which is a producer over overall deal, and they say for two or three years you have a pod at the studio where you will help develop TV shows. You'll find writers, you'll maybe put together talent, maybe directors, you'll package it, you'll kind of work on the package together and then pitch us the studio, the idea, and then if we like it, we'll shoot it. And if not, we won't. But the person who has the deal, sometimes they're just a highly paid actor on a hit show. They may have a shingle. Sometimes they're just really straight up producers who have a shingle and they will get an executive producer credit on the TV show. But the studio has their own people in charge who oversee the production on the creative side. Development executives or current executives do not get credit on it. It'd be a Warner Brothers show. So I don't recall ever seeing them ever get cut credit on a show unless they sometimes get fired or leave the studio or whatever, and then they get her own production shingle. So that's common.
Phil Hudson:
And that makes sense because the credit that I'm thinking about, that person who has that EP title, there are three of them and two of them are managers who sold the show. So they did that. They packaged things for Warner to come. So sometimes, and the other was the producer of this production studio making the show, and they were line producer, but also had a producer credit.
Michael Jamin:
Sometimes a manager of the talent of you, the writer or the actor may get a producer credit because they negotiate for it. It's not uncommon. Often those managers, it just depends on what they do. Often they don't show up. They might have a parking space right in front of the sound stage and they never show up a hundred percent.
Phil Hudson:
So that's true for Taco fd. And they do show up. They show up for one, maybe two times this season, typically once they pop in, spend about half a day, bring their kids and then they go.
Michael Jamin:
So it's not really, that's just not their focus. Their focus is on kind selling shows, not actually making them, but occasionally I know some of them. Dave Miner is actually pretty active. I know he helps out. He's
Phil Hudson:
One of the ones I'm thinking about. Yep, that shows up.
Michael Jamin:
He's a manager at Three Arts who also has a executive producer credit on his show, and he's involved more in the day-to-day, but not, it's the degree that the runners want him to be helpful and he is helpful, but it just depends on really the relationship that the producer wants to have on the TV show and what they want to do and what the showrunner is asking of 'em. But I've been on other shows where they have done very little or I was on one show where the producer, the executive producer was a manager of the talent and it seemed like she did everything in her will to help get the show canceled because she was completely inept. And eventually the show was canceled. Then I was like, boy, are you dumb? But it happens. So okay. But again, they don't raise money, and this is on the TV side.
They don't raise money with the exception of occasionally, maybe they want to help make a presentation or they put some money together, but they're not financing the show. In the rule in Hollywood, you don't want to put your money. Now if you are creating your own TV show, as I'm talking to my audience, how do you guys break into Hollywood? And I'll often say, Hey, put it on film, put it put up your YouTube channel. In that case, you are putting your own money. Yes, you'll be executive producer putting your own money up, but this is until you break in. And even then, I don't recommend you putting a lot of money. I'm talking about a couple of thousand, not a million
Phil Hudson:
Listen episode. Was it 99 where we talked about that? I think we hit on that 99 or 1 0 1. But yeah, think about that. Your story is probably not going to be worth but's. Still a good learning experience, but
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, it's not a great return on investment. But on the film side, it's a different story. Well, I should say it can be a different story. So if you're making a film, a producer, or it might have a similar function as a producer overall, Dylan and tv, they help put together the project, they have a deal or a shingle at the studio. But again, they're not putting together the money the studio is putting together the money. On an indie film, it's a little different. Often people, the indie filmmakers have to fundraise and so they'll often say, Hey, if you give $5,000, I'll give you an executive producer title on the show. And so in that case, they are helping raise the money.
Phil Hudson:
Yep. They're finding financiers to do it. And they're typically the ones I know of from the indie films that I've been a part of or seen marketing campaigns. They're typically made their money on pharmaceuticals or their lawyers and big time lawyers or their business people, dentists. And they just, again, we did talk about this recently, but oftentimes those people did not pursue their craft in order to pursue the paycheck. And this is their way of participating. Some of 'em, it's a new venture they're trying to get into. But yeah, that thing oftentimes, yeah. And oftentimes they're looking at it as a tax. They have money they have to spend anyway. It's okay if it takes a loss, why not put on a producer hat and help make an indie film?
Michael Jamin:
So this idea of when people say, I want to be a Hollywood producer, why? What exactly. Often you don't even know what that means. At the end of the day, if you want to be a producer, you are a producer today I'm a producer. And it just means you are going to hustle to make it happen. And I've worked with many producers who were really just people who hustled. They didn't have some great know-how. They were like, okay, I have a script. How am I going to get this script into the hands of this actor who I don't know? Well, I'll hide it inside of a pizza box and I'll deliver a pizza with a script inside. I've known producers who've done that. They're just hustlers and they've managed to put people together. And so that's what a producer is. A producer just makes it happen.
And so sometimes when people say, how do I become a producer? You do it. You just do it and worked. I had on my podcast, Jim Serpico, who's the producer of Marin, he, he's just like a normal guy who hustled, who was always figuring out ways just to make it happen, to get, if you wanted an actor, he's like, we didn't have an in with the actor. He goes, I'll figure out. I'll call someone who I know, someone who might know someone who might know this actor. I'll make some calls, give me a minute. And that's what he was, he was just a guy who was hustling put to just kind of make it happen. And that's how we learned that ultimately cervical learned a lot more about the business. He was very hands-on. He was helping scout and he knew how to shoot and he was really very helpful to have on set. But he really was just a guy who just wanted to do it. I'm here to get it done. That was his attitude.
Phil Hudson:
I'm thinking about Richard Perello, who is the producing partner of Broken Lizard, and I had the opportunity to be the producer's assistant on Quasi. And when I was doing that job, the line producer, he's U P M and line producer, and he was also a producer on Quasi, and he's also that on Taco. He's guy named Matt Melin. He sat down with him. He made it really clear the producers in film are very different than TV because you can have all of these producers in TV and you have to service them. But on film, there's really one producer, and that's the producer on set. They're the creative producer and that's very much what Perlo was. So his whole point was serve him. If the guys need something, get it done. But if you can hand it off to pa, do it. Just be there for Rich.
And that's what I did. I was there. I was there before him. I had his coffee ready, I had his sides ready. I'd set up his chair. If he had something he needed done, I'd run it. I knew what time to go get his coffee after lunch, I'd go get his lunch order. I do all of those things. And at the end you think me, because he's like, I just needed to spend that much time. You think you for taking care of me. It allowed me to focus on the set. And when I was there observing, sitting behind him in the chair in video village, he's like, we need more greens here. We need this here. And he did the same thing. He worked with the guys through their indie films on all of their indie film projects and just learned with them negotiating, figuring out how to get things done. And like you said, they're just hustlers. They get things done.
Michael Jamin:
So if you want to be a producer and you keep, and you're asking, well, how do I break into Hollywood to be a producer, then you're not a producer because the producer is someone who just gets it done. I will. They figure it out. And so I would say if you want to be a producer, you spend some time on set, learn what all the various jobs are, observe, and then find some kid with a script fresh out of film school or not out of film school and say, Hey, I want to work with you. Let's produce your script.
Phil Hudson:
Now you're I on the same line of logic. I had another conversation recently with a 24 because they've told me they want to push me down this producer path and they're open to working with me outside of Tacoma depending on what happens if we get picked up. And I said, well, what would be, because the next step for me would be a production supervisor, which is part of this producer path. Then the next would be assistant U P M U P M, line producer, and then potentially producer. And I said, what would make me a good production supervisor? And they said, learn the production side. Learn budgeting. If you could be a line producer's assistant, if you sit in on those conversations about money and how much that rig cost or that lens costs and how much we can afford to do this or that, said, there's no way that's not going to be helpful as a producer. And then she said, I know you want to be a writer. So the other thing is the best collaborators also understand production and budget because they are more willing to give and take. They know what to fight for the creative, they know what to let go of. So it's only helpful as someone who wants to be a showrunner as well.
Michael Jamin:
Also 8 24, they make some really good stuff. I know it's not exactly what you want to do in terms of writing, but it's like
Phil Hudson:
It's not something that I turned down no had conversations to about not bad. Yeah, we had conversations about me going to Houston to be a production supervisor on a film, but it was all dependent on the rider's strike. And this was back in April, and I talked to her recently. Everything's been pushed into next year on most of their production slate. They do have waivers from the Writer's Guild, which I don't think people, a lot of people understand. And the waiver is really that they've agreed to every single term the Writer's Guild put out, and they're a small indie film. They're not one of the big studios. And because of that, the Writer's Guild like, sure, if you're going to meet our demands, go ahead and make whatever films you want to do. And they're just continuing to make 'em happen.
Michael Jamin:
Hustle,
Phil Hudson:
They're hustling. It's same thing.
Michael Jamin:
Hustlers. Yeah. So that's why anyone who wants to be a producer, you can be a producer and you don't have to ask permission. Would
Phil Hudson:
You say it's street smarts more than book smarts here? Because I know the book smarts are important from a budgeting and a finance perspective, but I also seems to me someone who can just make things happen. That's the job, make it happen.
Michael Jamin:
For example, we're on set on Marin, we're shooting on book locations, the low budget show, we're shooting some neighborhood, and the minute they see the people see these trucks, the film trucks, because everything comes in these trucks, all the equipment, for some reason the leaf blowers show up that day.
Phil Hudson:
Lawnmowers are on, they
Michael Jamin:
Call each other the minutes that the director yells action, suddenly the leaf blowers show up out of everywhere. You can't shoot with a, and so the producers say, just hand out a hundred dollars bills. That's what a producer do. Hand out a hundred dollars just to get 'em to go away. Yep.
Phil Hudson:
Because it's costing him $10,000 every minute or whatever, every hour. It's
Michael Jamin:
Definitely a shakedown with these guys. Do
Phil Hudson:
I think it's 10 grand an hour on a low budget show? It's 10 grand an hour for the set. I talked to this, I was talking to someone about the cost of that. It's crazy. So it's worth a thousand dollars to keep the machine running,
Michael Jamin:
But that's what a good producer will do. Also, if it looks like rain, a producer will figure out, alright, we'll work with the associate producer, first assistant. Yeah, first ad to figure out what the shooting schedule will be. Okay, we will move this around. And sometimes the director will get into that conversation as well as the showrunner, but often you'll just turn to the producer. What do you want to do as a showrunner? I don't really give a crap. What do you want to do?
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, that's the other thing that's interesting that I don't think a lot of people understand is when you're making these projects, I always in my head assume they would be shot linearly and they're not. They're blocked shot because they have to be because the expense of moving the equipment and setting up shots, it's such a time suck, and you're paying all those people for those man hours. It's just easier to shoot. We're in the garage, shoot everything in the garage right now. So you have actors coming in and they're shooting the last scene of a movie, first thing, and they have spent maybe two or three rehearsals with their co-stars, and it's this incredibly emotional moment, and then they have to jump right into the levity of the first act. It's really fascinating that the complexity of a schedule, and that's again, something I would've assumed a producer would do. And no, the first ad does it and then the producer vets it to make sure it's going to meet the budget. Like the line producer.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. And then before that, seen a shot. As the part of the showrunner's job, we'll run up to the actors and say, okay, just to refresh your memory, shooting so much out of order. Sometimes we're shooting not just scenes out of order, but we're shooting entire episodes. We're shooting episode two and episode three at the same time.
Phil Hudson:
Block shooting episodes. We would do that all the time on Tacoma.
Michael Jamin:
And so we would run up to the actress before we're doing, before each scene, just to refresh your memory, this is where we are in the storyline. This is what you're playing here. If you read it, you might think, okay, I should be happy. But now you're mad at this person from the earlier scene.
Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.
Phil Hudson:
That's another thing I've seen too, which I think is incredibly valuable, is really good showrunners make the actors sit down and read the scripts out loud with them to make sure that they read everything. Because I've seen a propensity for actors to just read their lines and they don't understand how it fits into the full thing. That's not all actors, it's definitely not all actors, but I've seen a lot of actors do that.
Michael Jamin:
I have not worked on a show where that was a problem, but now that you mentioned, I have to probably keep my eye open it, but I'm sure in some shows actors can get lazy. But I haven't worked on, because Marin was a little different. Marin, he was the only regular because of the budget and everyone else was a guest star, meaning we would hire that actor for maybe five out of 13 episodes. They were not regular. So regular means you're on every single episode. So if you're a guest star and you're only doing five episodes, you you're going to come prepared. You're not going to sleepwalk your way through it. And so Mark was always prepared, and although often he was always prepared, but easily confused given how much he had to do in every single episode. So you had to go, just remind him where he was emotionally in each episode. But for the actors, the guest stars, they were always well, oh
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, you're on it.
Michael Jamin:
You're on it. Yeah, they're on it. They knew they were not going
Phil Hudson:
To work. Hats off to circuit codes on that too. What is it? How many days? A two and a half days to shoot an episode.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. And towards the end we got three. But that's crazy.
Phil Hudson:
That's wild. It's crazy wild. We had, I think is it eight days? We would block, shoot. So over two weeks we'd shoot two episodes. So I think it comes out to be like five days per episode, and it's still skinnier teeth getting by to get everything.
Michael Jamin:
So we were really running gun, and I used to say, as long as someone's finger was in the lens, we got it move on. There wasn't enough time. And so we would shoot everything in a, we would shoot, we block the scene, shoot the first thing in a first run in a master, which is kind like a rehearsal, but you're in a master, so you're everything, you're wide. So if the actor's not perfect, it's fine. You're only going to use the master to open the scene at the end, the scene, and then maybe a couple of times in the middle. And so we'd shoot the master and then go into coverage, which means going immediately to closeups. Wow.
Phil Hudson:
No mediums or anything like that.
Michael Jamin:
Very few. And then you
Phil Hudson:
Didn't have time.
Michael Jamin:
You don't have time. And occasionally in each episode we would give the director maybe one or two vanity shots like, all right, fine, you want to set up a crane or whatever. But you don't have many of those. But I worked on another show, God, it was so annoying. It was the director, we had more time. And he decided to put a camera, it was a car scene. He wanted to install a camera on the edge of the car so he can get a closeup of the wheel as the car was racing down the street. And we used that chauffer half a second, and it took hours to set the stupid shot up. And I'm like, why are we doing this? What's the point of this? Is anyone impressed by seeing a wheel of a car as it races down? Who cares? That's not what this show is. So sometimes I feel like you can more, you can waste time with shots that are completely unnecessary for the audience is not going to appreciate it more. I don't think anybody's going to appreciate it.
Phil Hudson:
Well, anyone listening to this who is interested in indie film, what you're describing, and the way you shot Marin is indie film. What is it like on average? And correct me if I'm wrong, I think it's three pages per day is a good shooting day for a TV show or a feature. And a feature might be half a page because they're doing bigger, broader.
Michael Jamin:
No, we were doing sometimes 11 pages a
Phil Hudson:
Day. Indies is 10. Yeah, I was going to say in is 10 you're doing,
Michael Jamin:
Sometimes we did 11. It was like, man, we got a lot to do. A lot to do. It's crazy. Oh yeah.
Phil Hudson:
I can't imagine that the crew just hustling nonstop.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, they were hustling and there's just no time to waste. But when you watch that show, no one thought. No one thought it was like it was sloppy.
Phil Hudson:
Felt like every other high quality film. And I think what's cool about that too, and I think you learned this when you study indie film, is there's a style that comes out of that. The minimalism almost adds to the value. And then we've talked on the podcast previously about the value of an art director or an art supervisor and how they can come in and really change things. In our Marin, we talked about the photos and they're out of focus, and that's where the art is. The Nissan Cent and everything else that's happening in the scene, the music comes into play to pick things up. But yeah, it's fascinating.
Michael Jamin:
The thing is, I would prefer, as crazy as that sounds, I would prefer to do another show like that as opposed to a big budget show faster. Let's shoot it faster. I just like it better.
Phil Hudson:
Buddy system was pretty quick too. I mean, we shot the buddy six
Michael Jamin:
Weeks buddy system was equally fast and even still feels when you're on set, it's like, oh, this is so boring. Even still, it takes a long time to get each shot, so I don't get it when, but also, there wasn't a lot of people being self-indulgent on Marin. A lot of actors was like, no, stop horsing around. Know your lines. We don't have time. So it forces people to focus. And you know what? The crew, they loved it. I think they got paid less than other shows. There was no overtime on Marin, but they loved it. They wanted to go home with their family. They didn't want to spend their lives on set. They were happy to work 12, 13 hours a day. Go home.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Well, I want to highlight one thing that you were talking about here. What you're describing as a showrunner is why the showrunner is the executive producer. You have to dictate what shots are important. You have to dictate the stone, the tone and style of the show. You have to make sure your actors are prepared. You have to make sure your actors understand what are going on. And I know there's specific union rules about who's allowed to talk to the actors and who isn't allowed to. The doctors who can talk to the background and who can't. But the fact that the showrunner is there to serve the entirety of the production rather than just the ego of an actor and understanding things at every detail, the nuances of which ash tray, what colors the car we're using, you're making all of those decisions to sculpt and build this that is a producer.
Michael Jamin:
And often you, let's say a black car and the producer says that car's going to cost a thousand dollars more than a silver car. He is, all right, let's get the silver one. I'll live with it. But also, there were times, plenty of times when we were running Marin where it's like the director would set up a shot and I'd yell off, we're not going to use this shot, so keep it going. I'm telling you, because the short winner has final say over cut, not the director in tv. So I'd say, I'm not going to use this shot. So don't waste time getting it. Spend your time somewhere else on a different shot that you'll like, but not this one. Because that comes
Phil Hudson:
From decade, a decade plus of doing the work of writing and being on sets. And I think that's another main thing that they're talking about with the strikes, the ability for writers to be on TV sets has gone away. Because unless your showrunner wants to invite you to the set, which praise to Kevin and Steve, they will always invite the writers when their episode is shooting and they can come sit in video village and hang the actors and watch their show get made. But a lot of productions, writers are not on staff and they have to work. So they go get another writing job and they're sitting in another room writing. You don't
Michael Jamin:
Learn any of this stuff. Yeah, you're not
Phil Hudson:
Learning how to be a showrunner. That's a lot of what the writer's guild striking about right now too, is staffing minimums, but also standards of how many people you want to have on set so people can learn the job of running a show.
Michael Jamin:
Right? There were times where, let's take, I see you're shooting. It's an emotional scene and they're covering in a, well, let's say they shooting in a wide, and it's an emotional scene. I'm not going to play it in a wide, I'm playing in a closeup. It's emotional. I'm going to be in a closeup or let's say it's a two shot. And also I know to make the joke pop, I'm not going to play it in a two shot. I'm going to play, jokes often have to play in singles or overs. So someone says a joke and the other person reacts to it, and it's the reaction that's funny. And if you play it in a two shot, it's not funny. And so there are things like this that you learn on set as an experienced showrunner or whatever writer you'll learn on set that you are not going to learn if you're not there. And so yes, this is partly what the strike is over. Sometimes you're getting shot coverage and they've crossed the line, and so these shots don't
Phil Hudson:
Match. Do you want to define that for your listen, so
Michael Jamin:
Hard to explain without drawing it out, but basically,
Phil Hudson:
Do you want me to explain it or you want,
Michael Jamin:
I can explain it, but it's hard to imagine what
Phil Hudson:
It's, who will crossing the line? Because you'll see an image of it. But I think for the listeners, you want it in their car.
Michael Jamin:
So imagine you're shooting, okay, so imagine you are shooting a multi-camera that come on a stage or any play on a stage. So the line separates the actors and the audience. There's a line there, imaginary line. And so the audience never crosses the line to watch come across that line to be on the actor side. And the actors never cross the line to the audience's side. And so when you're shooting a scene, imagine that the cameras are on the audience side. They're always behind that line and they never cross the line. And the problem is once you cross that line with a camera, the images get flipped.
Phil Hudson:
So it's very disjoint when you cut in post because all of a sudden someone was on the left and now they're on the right. Right.
Michael Jamin:
So if I'm talking to you in this shot here, we're doing this video podcast. I'm looking right at Phil, and Phil is looking left at me. That's how it's always going to be. I'm always looking right at Phil. And we
Phil Hudson:
Intentionally talked about that when we were setting up the video podcast. Who's looking right? Who's looking left? So that there was this line, so it wasn't disjointed. I don't set my camera up on the right hand side, and I'm on vacation, so I have this other camera. But normally if you look at it, it looks like we're having a conversation looking at each other.
Michael Jamin:
For the most part. Maybe in a movie or TV show, the camera's not going to cross the line because it becomes disorienting unless the director wants to disorient you, which is okay, that's a creative choice. The
Phil Hudson:
Other place would do it. And there's a book on directing. I read really early on in my studies that talked about this as principle, and it was really hard for me to understand. So that's why I'm saying Google it like Michael was telling you to do. But imagine there's a parade coming down the street and you're watching it from this angle, and if you jump to the other side, it's flipped. That's the flip. But if your camera moves on a dolly around the other side in your brain, you now understand, but you can't go back to the other side now. So you can flip it, but you can't hop scotch back and forth because
Michael Jamin:
That's the T. Yeah. Can reestablish a line. You can always establish a new line. But one of the most difficult things for a director to shoot, it's not a car chase. It's not an exclusion. It's four people sitting at a dining room table. It's wild. That's really hard to shoot.
Phil Hudson:
The blocking in that is wild. You see, they literally chart it out in a CAD software and it says, this person's looking here and this person's looking here. And you have where your camera goes so that you remember meticulous about that,
Michael Jamin:
Which is why you'll often see as a cheat, you'll see if it's a table one character sitting on one side and then two characters sitting on the other side, they're not sitting all around the table, they're just sitting on opposite ends of the table. And even that's kind of difficult to shoot. And I'm not a director, although I have director, but I still, when I have to work on scenes like that, I have a pencil and pad making notes to figure out if we're shooting on the right side of the line. It's so complicated.
Phil Hudson:
Yes, it's a three-dimensional chess. You're just, yeah,
Michael Jamin:
It's easy. A good DP can do it, no problem. They can see it and
Phil Hudson:
They'll tell you,
Michael Jamin:
They'll warn you. Yeah. And the script E, they'll be able to help you as well. But often the director is not so much of a help because that's just not what they're worried about. Or maybe they don't have the experience to worry about it. And so as a showrunner, I busied myself one season of Marin learning all about this, but it took a season to figure out how to do this because I dunno, I'm a slow learner. But anyway, so that has nothing to do with being a producer, but Well,
Phil Hudson:
It does because you have to pay attention to those things, and you have to know those things. So as an executive in your audience right now, that is not predominantly, we talked about the beginning, but largely screenwriters or people who are interested in film, I think that it's really important for them to understand that you're not just showing up smoking a cigar in a chair, barking orders. You're focused and paying attention. You have binders with notes. You have everyone coming to you with a thousand questions over and over again.
Michael Jamin:
And I'm lucky because I have a writing partner. Well, if I don't have the answer, I can punt it to him and he'll probably have the answer. But we often divide responsibilities that way. So I understand the camera's a little better. And he does. He does as much of the other. He's really good at figuring out where we are in the script and whose attitude, who knows what at which moment. Like, man, how do you remember all this stuff? But he also looks at me the same way. How do you know all this stuff about the camera? And that's why when people say, I want to be a showrunner, it's like, hold on. Do you know what a showrunner does? It's a hard job. Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
The Rider's Guild has training programs on this because it is difficult, and again, it's part of the strike because they're, is my opinion, just my opinion. But I think a lot of times, corporations, I get it. Their job is to maximize profits and their job is to satisfy the demands of their shareholders. And it's a quarterly game four times a year. They're just making moves to satisfy that. And the Writer's Guild looking at it as 20, 30 years down the road, they see this hole where there's going to be a gap where no one's going to know how to run a show when this group of showrunners retires or moves on. There's not going to be anyone with that skillset and that knowledge because they don't have the repetitions and the time on set and the observation, and we haven't even talked about post and the value of being in post to learn these things too. And we can't use that shot because this, or there's a better take. The notes that I have to manage and maintain for the showrunner in order to get, I give him the lemi so that he can sit and post and understand what shots were taken, all the scripting notes, everything. They're going through everything to make those decisions and posts. And it's largely that stuff. Then those decisions being made on the day when they're filming. Yeah.
Michael Jamin:
The thing is, you mentioned the showrunners program at the writer's club. I had a guest on here, Alex Berger, who I worked with many years ago, and he's at the level now where he's ready to get his own show. He just hasn't gotten his own show, but he took the showrunner's program at the writer's club. It's a free program you have to apply for though. And he says that he learned a lot. And I was like, oh, tell me what you learned. And I was interested to know what he learned, run three shows, but it doesn't mean I know. No, I'm doing it because I never went through the program. But I was like, oh, that makes sense.
Phil Hudson:
I found out about that show. And again, I've talked about this documentary many times, but it's a showrunner, the Art of TV writing. But that's great. And they go in and they talk about that program, and they interview the director of the program and what the job is. And the thing that really stood out to me was quality scripts on time. That's the main thing. That's your job. That is the linchpin. And my assistant, Kevin, I hired an assistant in my agency who's a script coordinator, and he worked on a bunch of shows, but he was telling that one of the shows he was working on got canceled because the showrunner was not turning in scripts on time. And a very well known showrunner too.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, it definitely happens. And on most of the shows we do, we try to get all the scripts done in pre-production. And the crew, the production staff is so grateful because that way they can plan ahead. They can decide which episodes to shoot. It's a hard enough job as it is without getting the script the night before. Imagine getting the script the night before and then telling 'em, okay, now you have to find, I don't know, a roller rink to shoot in the day the next day. How are they going to do that? So you have to get, this is when things get dangerous, when people are overworked or working late and cutting corners. So it's the job of the showrunner. And I think what the problem is, is I've been lucky I've had studios because these low budget shows that the studios are very, for the most part, hands off and they let you do your job. But on a high budget show, the studio may throw out a script the night before. We don't like it. And it's like, well, damn, do you understand what kind of stress this is going to put? Not just on the showrunner, but the entire crew in
Phil Hudson:
The families of the crew and the showroom as well. I know there are people on our crew who are working on the reshoots of Thor Love and Thunder, and they were working 14 hour days, seven days a week for two weeks straight. Terrible. And it is just like, Hey, it's going to make a billion dollars. We'll pay all of the overages and it'll all come out in the wash. We just got to get it done. And they did it shooting on a studio in Burbank, and then they have to drive home at three or four in the morning and then have turnaround.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Oh, I mean, these crew members really hard, hard, it can be a hard job. It could be a hard life. And so
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, you're getting home at 4:00 AM and then going to bed, you miss your kids. You wake up. I mean, even just, and I'll just say this, when I had my first kid, we were shooting quasi, my kid was almost a year old, and there were days I didn't see my kid, weeks. I didn't see my kid leave in the morning before she got up. And I'd come home before she went to bed or after she went to bed. That's heartbreaking.
Michael Jamin:
Heartbreaking. I hate that. Right.
Phil Hudson:
So it's what it was, and it was 30 days of that, and then it was over, and I was just very grateful
Michael Jamin:
At, you can see the end in sight. At least you can go, okay, it's 30 days. I could. But if this is your life and okay, it's 30 days now, but your next movie is also 30 days, and then 30 days after that, a different movie, that becomes really hard. Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
Well, I think that speaks to as well, what your priorities are and what you want out of life. We talk about how if you want to be a writer, you have to learn how to write and you have to write for free, and you have to get notes and get feedback. You have to learn all these skillset sets. But I don't think a lot of people think about the quality of life that they want to have. And there are a lot of people, I think when I told you I was having a kid, you were telling me that you had an assistant or someone that you knew was a really good writer, really talented, and they just moved out of LA because it just no longer fit their family lifestyle. I can't remember who you were telling me.
Michael Jamin:
I don't remember who that was.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, I remember I had the conversation. It was like literally you were telling them that. And then I was like, well, by the way, I'm having a kid after that. Because things shift and things change. Priorities change when you have a family, priorities. If you don't want to have a family and you're happy and you just want to make a career awesome and good for you, it's a balance. And I have a very supportive wife who lets me chase my dreams and do my things, and she hopes,
Michael Jamin:
But it could also be feast or famine. It can also be, you don't want to turn down this job. You don't know when your next job's coming. So
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, imagine if I didn't have an agency that I'd built for the last decade. I'd be in a real bad spot right now with two kids. Yeah,
Michael Jamin:
Exactly. Yeah, right. There are a
Phil Hudson:
Lot of people like
Michael Jamin:
That. I said, you're smart to have this other income stream, multiple income streams in Hollywood. Yeah. Well, there we go, Phil.
Phil Hudson:
Good stuff. Any other thoughts on producing or
Michael Jamin:
I don't know. I think I hit it. Do you have anything you want to add to this?
Phil Hudson:
No, I think it was a very helpful conversation. I hope people, I found it very enjoyable personally. I mean, just hearing you talk about these things and the nuances, it's just kind of sets the stage for what the job really is. And I think the mistake or the folly we often run into as creatives is we have this delusion of grandeur that we're going to make it in Hollywood and we're going to win an Oscar, and we're going to do these things. And you have to have a little bit of that suspension of disbelief, which is what we ask our audience to have. We have to suspend our disbelief about the reality of what our world looks like to chase our dreams and our goals, but we also need to be grounded and understand what the stakes are. And I think that's one of the values that you bring in the podcast. And what we see from people talking about is just, we just read the reviews the other day, just going through a bunch of 'em, and you and I we're really appreciative for anybody who's leaving reviews. So if you enjoy,
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, please go and leave us a review on Apple, if you like our
Phil Hudson:
Show on iTunes. Yeah. But yeah, it's like people are just like, there's gold. Every episode's full of gold and wisdom. I just really think that it's a credit to your realistic take on of this, Michael. I just think you're just preparing another generation of writers and producers and creatives to just understand. You may never make it in the way you think you will, but it's still worth pursuing if you want to just keep doing it.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, yeah, and that's a good point because I do know before I wrap it up, I have spoken with people who chase the money after college because for various reasons and all that may be completely legit, maybe they didn't grow up with money, and so having money in the pocket really felt good, some stability, but then they reach a certain age where the money does no longer fill the hole, and so then they start chasing, they want to do something a little more creative with their life.
Phil Hudson:
There's a Ben Fold song called The Ascent of Stan, and it's talking about this corporate guy who gets laid off after 30 years and he goes home and he puts his slide deck in and he projects it onto the wall and traces it because he's going to paint this thing and it's just all pointless. What has my, basically when it's like, what has my life been, I put 20, 30 years into this corporation and they just escorted me out one day and here I am just trying to find my art again. And it's like, what's the point? And that's reality. But
Michael Jamin:
You don't need anyone's permission to start making your art today. Maybe we'll talk more about that in another podcast, but yeah, don't wait for, just start doing it. Start creating it. Love it. Alright everyone, thank you so much. We got a lot of good free stuff on my website. Go visit it and you can get all the things. You can get a free screenwriting lesson. You can get an invitation to my free screenwriting webinar, which we do every few weeks. Got another one coming up. Well, I dunno when this airs, who knows? There's
Phil Hudson:
Always one coming up at this point, which is, there's always one, a lot of really good feedback.
Michael Jamin:
You can learn more about my book, a Paper Orchestra. When that drops, you can see me on tour. You can just get the book, the audio book working on. You can get a sample script that I wrote or a couple simple scripts you could get. What else can you get,
Phil Hudson:
Phil? The newsletter, weekly
Michael Jamin:
Newsletter we give away. Phil's in charge all giving Phil's in charge of giving it all away. I
Phil Hudson:
Just take from Michael guys, it's all
Michael Jamin:
He gives it away.
Phil Hudson:
I'm Robin Hood and we're just handing it to the masses,
Michael Jamin:
But it's all go to michaeljamin.com.
Phil Hudson:
Asked me to give it away. To be clear, everyone, Michael's like, Hey, if I wanted to learn from someone, I don't want to read their script. Can we put my scripts up here? I'm like, yeah, I'll figure out how to make the form and the email auto drip campaign work and make sure the tags are functioning.
Michael Jamin:
Yep. He's the digital marketer. So you go check out ruck ss e o as well if you're all your digital marketing needs. Okay, everyone, thank you so much. Until next week, keep writing.
Phil Hudson:
Thanks guys.
This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar@michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.
On this week's episode, Writer Adam Pava (Boxtrolls, Lego Movie, Glenn Martin DDS and many many more) talks about his writing career, and why sometimes when he writes features, he doesn't always get credited. Tune in for much more!
Adam Pava on Twitter: https://twitter.com/adampava?lang=en
Adam Pava on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1106082/
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Adam Pava:
I think that's the main thing is have samples that show exactly what your voice is and exactly what makes you different than everybody else, and what you can bring to the table that nobody else can. I think that's the first thing, but to get those open writing assignments, I think it's just a cool errand to even try because they're just so risk averse to hire anybody that hasn't done it before. I think the better shot that you have is to make smaller things and then they'll seen you've done it. You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jenman.
Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back for another episode. I may be retitling the name of my podcast. So I'm, I'm going to be vague for everyone, but I'm here with my next guest, Adam Pava, who's a very talented writer I worked with many years ago on show called Glen Martin, d d s, and he works. We'll talk. I'll let you speak in a second. Pava, you just relax. I'm going to bring you on with a proper introduction because you've worked a lot, lot of features, a lot of animation. So I'm going to run through some of your many credits. Some of them are credited and some of them just are not so credited. We're going to talk about that even though you've done the work. So I think you started early on on shows like Clone High, Johnny Bravo, I'm going to skip around.
You worked with us on Glen Martin d d s, but then you've also done Monsters versus Aliens Dragons. I'm going to jump around, but wait, hold on. I'm skipping a lot of your credits, Pavo, a lot of the box trolls you've done, you work a lot with Lord and Miller on all their stuff, all the Lego movies, goblins. You have something in the works with Leica, which is one of the big animation studios which you're attached to direct as well, and then also some other shows. Let's mention My Little Pony dreamland. What else should we talk about? A bunch of the label, it's hard to talk about the credits because so many of 'em are things that are either in production or development that they're not supposed to talk about yet, or they're things that I was uncredited on. And so it's a weird thing.
And why are you uncredited? How does that work? It's super different from TV and movies. So back when I worked in tv, I did tv. I mean, back when we worked together it was like what, 10, 15 years ago? Something like that. But I did TV for the first decade of my career and everything you work on, you're credited, even if you're just like the staff writer in the corner who says three words and doesn't make, get a joke into the script. You're one of the credited writers. Movies are a different situation. It's like one of these dirty secrets of Hollywood where they always want to credit one writer or a team of writers. Sometimes it'll be two writers that get the credit if both of 'em did a huge chunk of the work. But the thing that usually happens these days on big studio movies anyway is they will go through three or four writers over the course of the years and years of it being in development and all those writers who worked on it before the final writer or sometimes just the first writer and the last writer will get credit and all the ones in the middle won't get credit.
Or it's like the W G A has these arbitration rules where it's like, unless you did a certain percentage of the final shooting script, you're not going to get credit at all. So even though the guy who brings catering gets credit and every person on, so will you arbitrate for credit or do you go into these projects knowing that you're not going to get credit? Usually I go in knowing that I'm not going to get credit or I will. Sometimes there'll be a situation. I did about a year's worth of work on the Lego movie, the first Lego movie, and Phil and Chris, Phil Lauren and Chris Miller who directed that and wrote the first draft of the script and the final draft of the script. They're buddies of mine and so I'm not going to arbitrate against 'em and I want them to hire me in the future and I love them and they really wanted, they're written and directed by title, and so of course I'm not going to arbitrate in that sort of situation.
And also to be fair, I don't think I would win that arbitration because they wrote the first draft and it was already the idea and it was brilliant and it came out of their minds and it was awesome. And then they had me do four or five drafts in the middle of there where I was just addressing all the studio notes and all the notes from the Lego Corporation and all the notes from Lucasville and all that kind of stuff while they're off shooting 21 Jump Street and then they come back. So you were just doing it to move it closer and then they knew they were, yeah, exactly. They knew they were coming back onto it and they were going to direct it and they would do another pass. They would do multiple passes once it goes into storyboarding once it's green lit. So I was just trying to get it to the green lit stage, so they had written a draft and then I did a bunch of drafts addressing all these notes and then we got a green lit off of my drafts and then they came back on and they started the storyboard process and directing process.
And the story changes so dramatically during that process anyway that the final product is so far removed from the drafts I did anyway, but it was a valuable, my work was needed to get it to that point to where they can jump back onto it. But very little of that final movie is anything that I can take credit for and I wouldn't want to take credit away from them on that. So I do a lot of that kind of work. Did they have other writers that worked on Legos movie as well, or just you? On the first one, it was them and me. There was these two brothers, the Hagerman brothers who had done a very early treatment, but that had set up the original idea for the movie of Allego man sort of becoming alive. So they got a story by credit, and then they definitely always have a stable of writers that they bring in to do punch up work and to just watch the animatic and give notes and stuff like that.
So there's a whole bunch of people that are contributing along the way. Funny, they come from tv, so they really run it. They run it as if they're still on TV a hundred percent. They have their writers. And so I've gotten to work on a lot of their projects as one of their staff writer type people basically is the idea. So it's all uncredited work, but it's great work. They're such great guys and you're working on really cool things every time. And so now there's a new, in the last few years, the W G A started this new thing called additional literary Material credit. And so if Lego were to have come out now, I think I would've gotten that credit on it, but at the time, that didn't exist, so I got a special thanks. And how did you, oh, really? Okay. And how did you meet these guys?
They gave me my first ever job before I knew you. I mean, I had written a movie script that was an animated movie. This is like 99 or 2000. I was just out of grad. I wrote it while I was in grad school. And Wait, hold on. I didn't even know you went to grad school. Did you study screenwriting in grad school? Yeah, I went to U S C screenwriting. Oh, I did not. I hide it from you. Why do you hide it? For me? I don't know. It's a weird thing where I feel like a, it's like I was in this weird secondary program that wasn't part of the film school. It was the master's of professional writing and screenwriting. And so people would get confused and I didn't want to lead them on, but also I just feel like it got me to a place and then I was like, I didn't want be part of a good old boys club where people are just hiring U S C people or whatever.
That's the whole point of going to USC for Yeah, people ask me, should I go to film school, get an M F A, and my standard answer is, no one will ever ask for your degree. No one caress about your degree. The only thing they care about is can you put the words on the page that are good a hundred? But why did you, but what it did offer me, and I'll get back to how I met Phil and Chris in a little bit, but this is a good side conversation. It gave me an opportunity to do some internships on a couple of TV shows. And that was super, super valuable. So when I was at U SS C, it was 99 and 2000, and so I interned my first year on a little show called Friends, which was still on the air. I was on the air at the time.
I was just the stage intern. So I was moving the chairs around during the rehearsals and fetching coffees and getting frozen yogurt for cast members or whatever, just shitting my pants, trying to be a normal human being around all these superstars and was not, I wouldn't say it was the best experience of my life. It was definitely one of those things where I was like, everybody was super intimidating and everybody was really busy and the cast were in the middle of a renegotiation, so they're all showing up late. It just felt like everyone was angry the whole time. And I was like, dunno if I want to work in tv. But there was one writer's assistant who was just like, yeah, because on the stage you're a writer, you need to be in a writer's room, you should be an intern in a writer's room.
And I was like, oh. And then so I was able to get an internship on Malcolm In the Middle, which had just sold, it was in his first year, so it was a summer show. So I jumped onto that in the summer and was able to do that. And then in that writer's room, I was like, oh, these are my people. These are actual, wait, you were an intern. They let you sit in the writer's room one. It was like for doing all, getting the lunches and making the coffee and all that stuff. Linwood was nice enough to let me just observe in the room for one day a week just to, well, if I didn't have other stuff I needed to get done. So it was super nice as long as I didn't pitch or say anything and I was just, I never would.
But it was cool to, that experience showed me that show was so well written and it was so tight and those writers were all geniuses or I thought they were all geniuses. And then I'd go in the room first, I would read the scripts and I would think, oh my God, I'd never be able to do this. And then I got in the room and I'm like, oh no, they're just working really, really hard and banging their head against the wall until they come up with a perfect joke. And then by the time it's done, it seems like it's genius. But it all was just really hard work, really long hours to get to that place. So that taught me like, oh, maybe I can be one of those people. If I'm just one cog in this room, I could do that. And so that gave sort of the confidence to do that.
So I had done those. Getting back, I can loop back into the Phil and Chris thing now because this actually connects really well. I had done those internships. I graduated U Ss C and I had this script that I'd written as my final project or whatever, and it was an animated movie, and I thought you could just sell an animated movie, but I didn't know, they didn't teach me this in grad school that at the time they developed 'em all. It was like only Disney and Dreamworks were doing 'em at the time. This is 2000. And they just hire directors and sort of were an artist in-house to sort of create the stories or back then that's how they would do it. And so I sent it to some agents and the response was always like, Hey, you're a really funny writer. This is really good.
I can't sell this. I don't know anybody that buys animated movies, but you should write a live action movie if you can write it as good as this. And so I wrote another movie that was Live Action, but it was silly. It seemed like it might as well have been an, I go back and read it now and I'm like, it's basically an animated movie, but it didn't say it was animated, it was live action human beings. And I submitted it to a small boutique agency at the time called Broder. I don't know if you remember them, Broder Crow, we were there. Yeah. And so Matt Rice was an agent there at the time, and he had on his desk, his assistant was Bill Zody. I dunno if you know him, he's a big name agent now, but he was an assistant at the time.
He read that script that I wrote and was like, oh, you know who this reminds me of these other clients that Matt has, Phil and Chris. And so he passed it on to those guys and they were looking for a writer's assistant on Clone High because they had just sold their first TV show. They were a young hotshot writers that were just deal. And so I met with Phil and Chris, and they hired me as the writer's assistant on Clone High, which was like, they were the same age as me. They were just like, we don't know what we're doing. But they're like, you've been in a writer's room, you've been knock on the middle and I friends and you, I didn't know anything. I didn't know what I was doing at all, but it said on my resume that I had had these experiences.
So they thought I would be a good writer's assistant for that reason. But they were the coolest dudes from the very beginning. They were just like, you're the writer's assistant, but also you should pitch in the room. You should act like you're another writer. We have a really small staff, we have seven writers, and you're going to get episode eight. I mean, it was crazy. They were just like, they gave me a lance and that never happens anymore. How did they get an overall deal when they came? Oh, it's the craziest day. So they went to Dartmouth, they made each other at Dartmouth and then they were doing cartoons while they were there studying animation. And one of Phil's, I think it was Phil, I think it was Phil won the Student Academy Award for a student film that he did. And it was written about in the Dartmouth Alumni magazine.
And there was a development exec at Disney whose son went to Dartmouth and read that article and was like, Hey, called them in their dorm room. And we're like, if you guys ever go out to la lemme know. We'll set a meeting. And they literally, the day after they graduate just drove to LA and then called 'em up and we're like, we're ready to get hired. And it worked and they got hired, it worked. They got hired just to do Saturday morning stuff, and they did that for a little bit and everything they were doing was too crazy for Saturday morning, but it was like Disney. But then Disney was like, well, you can start developing stuff for adult Disney or for primetime stuff. And so they came up with the idea for Clone High, and it originally sold to Fox as a pilot to be after the Simpsons or whatever, but then it didn't get picked up and then M T V picked it up and then they had a show.
So it's crazy what a trajectory their career has. Yeah, I know. And now they're running Hollywood. Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much. Yeah. They were good guys to meet right away mean honestly, it was like to become friends with them and just to ride their wake and get some of their sloppy seconds and some of the stuff that they don't want to deal with, it's honestly, it was great. Did they call you a lot with stuff like that? Hey, we don't want to do this. It's yours less now than they used to. I mean, there was a point where I was one of their stable guys that they would call. I think they have met a lot of people in the 20 years since then, but early on it was like, I mean, even their first movie was Claudio with a Chance of Meatballs, and they brought me on to help rewrite the third act at one point.
And it was just from then on, they would always send me their scripts and just add jokes or to give feedback or whatever, and they've always been like that. And then I've noticed the last maybe six or seven years as they've gotten these huge deals and all their projects are now just these massive things, it's not quite the same relationship where they would just text me or email me and be like, Hey, read this. Now. It's like they have a whole team of people. They have a machine now, but we still are friends. And then things will come up where they'll hire me for things here and there. I wonder, honestly, I don't want to make this differe about them, but it's so interesting. I kind of think, I wonder what it's like to be that busy. It almost feels like, oh my God, I'm too busy.
They're so busy. They're the hardest working people I know. It's like people always wonder how this stuff comes out so good. And it's not that, I mean honestly, it's just good because they stay up later than everybody. They never stop tinkering with things. They're never satisfied. They always think the next thing they do is going to ruin their career. And so they run on this fear that propels them that, I mean, they harness it. It's not like it's a secret. They know that this is what makes them great and utilizing all their friends utilizing, they're the kind of people that are the best idea in the room wins. If you could be the PA or the head of the studio and if you have a great idea, they're like, let's try it. And they also try a lot of stuff that doesn't work and they're given the leeway to go down a lot of dead ends and then realize that's not the answer, and then back up and then try it again and try it again and try it again.
And that's how a lot of animated movies are done. And so it drives everybody crazy, but also creates amazing product. That's what, because I've interviewed a couple of guys who worked at dreamworks, which John Able who does a lot of the kung movies, and he describes it the same way. I was like, wow, it's so different from writing live. It's so different from writing live action. The whole experience sounds exhausting to me. Do you find it the same? Yeah, I mean when I first started in it, I was like, this is ridiculous. Why don't they just write a script and then shoot the script? And then over the years, I've learned to love the process. I mean, I was frustrated early on when I would realize how much gets thrown out and how much changes and how much. It's just, it's out of the hands of one writer.
And I think a lot of it is also just ego thinking that you could do it better than everybody. And then once I embraced, oh no, you have a bunch of really brilliant storyboard artists and you have a bunch of really brilliant character designers and head of story and a director and all these different people who, and layout artists and even the animators themselves, they all add something so vital and valuable to it, and you learn stuff from each of their steps and then you're just given the leeway to be able to keep adjusting and adjusting until you get it right. And that's why animation comes out so much tighter often than live action is just because you've been able to see the movie so many times and keep tweaking and tweaking until you get it right. Now there is a point where sometimes I feel like you can take that too far and then it just becomes like, oh, we had a great version, four drafts to go and now we've lost our way, or we're just spinning our wheels or whatever.
See, that's why I get lost sometimes. I've been in shows where you rewrite something to death and then someone says, we should go back to the way it was, and I'm like, what was the way it was? I don't even remember anymore a hundred percent, and I've stopped ever thinking You can do that. I used to think I would hold out hope though they'll realize that the earlier draft was better. They'd never do. It's like everybody forgets it, and then you just have to have the confidence to be like, well, we know we'll come up with something better together that it'll be from the collaborative mind of all of us. And then I think now I've seen actually the last few years, there's a little bit of a tightening of the belt budgetarily, and that leads to faster schedules. And so instead of having seven times that you can throw the story up from beginning to end on the storyboards, like the reels and watch this movie, you can only do it three times or so.
That gives you a little bit more of a window of like, okay, we got to get it right in three drafts or whatever, in three storyboard drafts. And who's driving the ship then in animation? Is it not the director in this case, it's Lord Miller, but they're the writers. Well, Lord Miller are often the directors, and so when they're the directors, they're in charge when they're the producers, they're in charge When they're on the Spider Verse movies, for example, they're the writer or Phil writes them and then they hire directors. But Phil and Chris are the producers, but they're sort of like these super directors. They're very unusual. Yeah, it's not, yeah, that's an unusual situation. But other movies somebody do at dreamworks and there's somebody do at Leica Leica, it's like the director and the head of the studio, Travis Knight, who it's his sandbox and it's his money because he's a billionaire that funds the studio.
He has the ultimate say, and so the directors are always working with him, but it's always collaborative. It's always like you get in a room. When I'm working at Leica, it's always like me, the director and Travis trying to figure it out, and he's trusted me to be, I feel like he doesn't trust a lot of people. He is kind of closed off in that way, but once you earn his trust, you will be in that room and you'll figure it out together or whatever. But every movie's different, and sometimes I'm on a movie just to help fix it for a little bit, and then I'm just a fix it person that comes in for a little bit. Sometimes I just add jokes. Sometimes I just, there's been movies where it was a mystery animated movie and they're like, can you just rewrite the mystery?
I was like, what a weird assignment. But I had three weeks still. But in this case, they're calling you. How are you getting this work? Just reputation, they're calling you out of nowhere? Mostly now it's reputation. I mean, sometimes I'll be submitted to it. I mean, the first time it's always like you have to be submitted. And I mean, I can tell you how I got hired on box rolls. That was a big breakthrough to me. I mean, it was after I'd done, so Lego was obviously just having known and worked with Phil and Chris forever, and then they got hired on Jump Street, and they needed somebody that they trusted to dear the ship for a while while they're gone. And so I was able to do that, and that was a huge big break. It was like, you couldn't ask for that. I just, I'm the luckiest guy in the world.
But after that, at Leica, they had a draft of a movie before it was called box Rolls, it was called Here Be Monsters, and it had been in development for years and years and years and gone through a bunch of writers and they hadn't quite figured it out. It was kind of a mess. It was a big sprawling story that had a lot of moving parts to it, and they had heard that on Lego, I was able to harness a lot of the crazy ideas that Phil and Chris had and put it into a structure that made sense. And so they asked me to come in and do the same thing, or before they even did that, I did a punch up. I got hired to do a punch up on that movie, and I knew that it was going to be a huge opportunity to impress them.
I really, really wanted to work at Leica because at the time, they had only had Coralline come out and I loved that movie. And then I had seen maybe ParaNorman had come out or it hadn't come out yet, but it was about to, whatever it was, I knew it was a new animation studio doing really unique original stuff, and I got asked to be part of this round table, and it was all these heavy hitter Simpsons writers. It was like J Kogan and Gamo and Pross, all these people that you're like, these are all legends. They've done a million shows and they get hired to do punch up all the time. That's like their bread and butter, right? I'm not so sure anymore, but okay, no, no, but this is in 2011 or whatever.
And I was like, I am going to take this script and analyze it and come up with character moments and come up with, I'm not going to be able to compete with those guys with the best joke in the room necessarily. I'll have good jokes to pitch, but I'm going to have like, oh, what if we adjust the character to be more like this? And where those guys were all, not those guys specifically, but the room in general, these were all guys who were maybe reading five pages ahead and then pitching off the top of their head. And I spent a couple of days writing jokes in the margin and ideas in the margin, and I killed in that room. I got a lot of stuff in and to the point where a few months later when they needed a big overhaul, they asked me to come in and do sort of what I had done on Lego, just take this big thing and hone it down into, so it was a rewrite job at the beginning, and then it turned into three years of working with the director in the studio to change that story.
We threw everything out and started over basically a couple times over the course of those years end up, but how are you get paid? Are you getting paid on a weekly scale? Because I don't know how that would work. Do you get paid? It starts off with a draft and then it'll be a typical thing like a draft in two rewrites, but you quickly run through those and then they keep needing your work. At least they're not getting free work out of you. They're picking no, then it turns into either a day rate or a weekly rate, and that's where I bought my house.
I made so much money on my day rate. They would literally just, Leica would call me and just be like, oh, we're going to record an actor in a few days. Can you just go through all their scenes and write three or four alts for every joke? Just have a bunch of stuff. And I would spend a few days doing that, and then a day rate, you get paid really, really well, that stuff adds up. Or they would be like, we just need one more pass on the third act, or we just need to go through the whole script and remove this character. And so all these little weekly assignments, and then you're just like, that was very lucrative doing it that way.
Michael Jamin:
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Adam Pava:
You usually, because done so much animation and it sounds like you always set out to do animation, is that I did set out to do it, and then I didn't set out to only do it. I thought I could do both, but you kind of get pigeonholed a little bit. It's hard. I've gotten hired to write a few live action movies, but there were always a live action movie that had an animation element to it. It could be a hybrid movie or be a family movie that they think, oh, because you've done family work, you can do this. But nobody would ever hire me to just do a horror movie or whatever. And I don't know if I'd be the right guy for that either. I think my sensibility tends to be more animation based, but also, I think movies are such a different thing than TV where there's like, they're so expensive.
If you're spending $80 million or whatever, you want to hire somebody that's done it before. So it's really, really hard for the studio bosses or even the lower level executives to fight to hire you if you've never done that kind of thing before. And so you get, it's not pigeonholed. I love doing it and I love the work, but it's also, I get why I get hired for certain things and not for other things. But also I feel super lucky because animation is one of the only parts or the only genres of film that has not shrunk over the years. Movies in general, they've stopped making live action comedies almost completely, except for stuff on streamers. They don't make rom-coms anymore. They barely make action comedies. It's like they make superhero movies and Star Wars movies, but then animation movies are evergreen. And so I feel really lucky that I sort of fell into this area that there is still work to be had.
So yeah, I mean, you really have put together a really pretty impressive career. And I know not all your credits, not all your work is credited, so what I mean? Yeah, well, it's either uncredited or there's so many projects that died Vine. So it's like you read my, I said you that list of credits and it's like I'm looking at it over earlier today. Oh, it's just a list of debt projects, but that's expected. When you go into it, you go, okay, they're not all going to go. That's expected. It's all right. I was looking at my, I was organizing my, it's a strike, so I have time to do these things, organizing my folders on my computer and putting everything in, and I had over 150 folders of each. One is its own project, and not all of those are work that I've done.
Some of them are like, I got sent this thing to pitch on, and then I had one meeting and it went away. And some of 'em I did a few weeks on, or some of 'em I just did day work on, but 150 projects over the years. Some of 'em I'm on for a year or two or three years. So it's insane. And so the hit ratio is super low of, I got really lucky when I transitioned out of TV and went into movies. It was like the first two things. Well, I sold a thing to Dreamworks that didn't get made, but then right after that, it was Lego and box trolls. They both came out in 2014, and I worked on both of 'em, and I was like, oh, this is going to be easy. You work on a movie and then it comes out and then it's cut to 10 years later and it's like nothing else is my name on it has come out.
I've worked steadily. I've worked really well. I've been very happy. But it's definitely, it's a different thing than TV where you're just working and getting credited all the time. Well, yeah, but it also sounds like, I don't know, it sounds like to me, maybe I'm wrong. It sounds like you don't need to hustle as much doing what you do. No, I feel like it's the opposite because on TV you can get on a show and you're running for years, but on a movie you always know what's going to add, but they're coming to you. People are coming to you with offers, in other words. Oh yeah, sometimes. I mean, yes, the ones that end up happening, that's true. But there's so many that I'm just on a list at the studio, but I'm in a bake off with six other writers and I don't get it.
So you put a lot of work so people don't know what to bake off is. So this is when you have to pitch to get the job and you have to put in several weeks of work. That's the worst. That's just the worst. And that's the majority of my life. Oh, is it? That's like, yeah. Yeah. So there's definitely, I mean, between Phil and Chris and Laika, I have, and a little bit of Dreamworks now. I'm doing my third movie for them right now. So that's pretty good over 10 years, three movies. But other than those places, it's always like you're getting sent stuff, but that doesn't mean they want you. It just means they want to hear a bunch of takes, and so you have to try to fight for the job if you really want it. Or I used to spend months or maybe eight months coming up with the take and having every detail worked out.
And then I realized over time, they don't actually want that. They want a big idea and some themes and some ideas of what the set pieces are, and they want to know that you, I mean, honestly, it's, I don't even recommend that young writers go out for them because you're not going to get it anyway, because they're always going to go with somebody that has done it before. Especially, I mean, not always, if you might be the rare exception, but so much. Well, then what do you recommend to young writers to do? Dude, I don't know. I mean, I think you have to write great samples. I mean, I think that's the main thing is have samples that show exactly what your voice is and exactly what makes you different than everybody else, and what you can bring to the table that nobody else can.
I think that's the first thing. But to get those open writing assignments, I think it's just a fool's errand to even try, because they're just so risk averse to hire anybody that hasn't done it before. I think the better shot that you have is to make smaller things, and then they'll see you've done, it's not even try to get these big studio things, get a small indie thing if you can, or make your own thing if you can, or just try to work your way up in a smaller way. I mean, all the big name directors out there all started on small indie movies. And I think that's got to be the same for writers now too. So many fewer movies. Is there anything that you're doing on the side just for the love of it that you're creating for yourself? Or is it, I haven't, in the last few years, I haven't.
I've just been busy with work, but during the pandemic, I had plenty of time. Nobody was buying movies, and I am wrapped up on something and I had an idea that I thought was going to be my next big sale, and that it was an idea about a virus that went, it was a comedy thing, but it was this idea where it was sort of based on the idea that Christmas is getting longer and longer every year, where people put up their lights in decorations sooner and sooner, and you start seeing the stuff for sale in October or whatever. And so I was like, oh, it felt like Christmas was a virus that was slowly taking over the world. And I was like, what if it's a zombie movie, but Christmas is the virus? And so it was sort of a Christmas apocalypse thing where Christmas takes over the world and one family didn't get infected and had to fight back.
So I was like, this is going to be a big seller. And then I was like, and then Covid hit, and it was like nobody wanted to buy a thing about a virus taking over the world, so I literally spent the pandemic. To answer your question, I wrote it as a novel. Instead, I wrote it as a middle grade novel, a y, a novel. Did you publish it? Not yet. We're trying. So we're out to publishers, and it took a while to figure out literary agents, which are very different world and everything, but the idea is to hopefully sell it as a book and then be able to adapt it as a feature. But yeah, it was so fun to write, and it was so freeing to not be stuck in 110 pages and to, I mean, I already had the whole thing outlined from the pitch when I was going to pitch it, so I knew the structure of it, so I just kept it as the structure of a movie, but I expanded on it and got more into the character's heads and that kind of stuff.
But I had such a fun time writing that, and I was just like, man, someday when the work dries up, I am going to look forward to writing novels instead. And oh, yeah. The funny thing is when you describe the literary word going out to publishers, it's not that different from Hollywood. You think It is. It's not. It's the same hell. Oh, absolutely. But you and I haven't had to deal with breaking into Hollywood in a long time. And then in the literary world, they're like, oh, you've written movies. We don't care. We don't care at all. So it's starting over. And U T A tried to help a little bit, but they're like, we don't really know what to do. And then, so it's, I've been, my manager has been introducing me to editors and stuff, literary editors, and they've been really receptive, and it's been good trying to find the right one and the person I jive with. But it's very much like, oh, you're starting from scratch all over again. And for less money, no money. I mean, literally, I don't know how you would make a living off of this. I mean, I think we're spoiled a little bit, but what was the money they were telling you? Can you say, I don't want to say you don't, but it was basically about, it was less than a 10th that I would get paid on a movie.
It was about my weekly rate. So I was telling you, I do weekly jobs on movies, and it's like if I do a weekly on a studio movie or I could sell a novel, or you could work five years on a novel, and I'm like, oh, this is not a way to support a family, but it was really fun. Someday when I'm just doing it for fun, I would love to do it. Wow, how interesting. Wow. So your best advice, because you're not an animator, you're not even an artist, are you? No, I don't draw or anything. I just love animation. I just always loved animation. So I don't know. I think when I was in seventh grade when the Simpsons started, and that blew my mind, and I was like, I remember telling my dad, I think I want to write on this. It was the first time I recognized, oh, people are writing these jokes. It was very, I think, more self-aware than most comedy was. And I was in junior high and I was just like, I want to be a writer on a show like this. I never was a writer on that show, but a bunch of other stuff.
Now, as far as directing, because I know you're attached to possibly direct this project, where does your confidence come from that to direct? I mean, I don't know if I have confidence in it. I mean, I would want to co-direct it. In animation, you often get paired with another, if you're a writer, you'd get paired with an experienced animation director who comes from the visual side. So either an animator or a store wear artist or visual development artist. And I just feel like some of the projects I've been doing, you sort of act as more than just a writer anyway. You're sort of meeting with the creative heads all the time, making these big decisions that affect the projects. And at a certain point, I'm like, well, if I write something, that project that I, that's at life that I was attached to, it probably won't even happen at this point.
It's been a few years, and it's kind of sitting there waiting for Travis to decide if he wants to make it. But it was a personal project to me, and it was like this would be the one that I was like, I would really want to see this all the way through. And I'm sure at that studio at this point, he's, Travis himself who runs the studio, is kind of directing all the latest projects anyway, so I would be co-directing with him. And so he would really be in charge, and I would just be, they're up in Seattle, right? Portland? Yeah, Portland or in Portland, yeah. So do you go up there a lot for Yeah, when I'm on a project, so usually it's like if I'm just writing it before it's green lit, which is most of the time I'll just fly up there for meetings just to get launched or whatever, and then go back up after I turn it in to get notes. But if it's in production on box trolls, and then there's another upcoming one that I did a bunch of production work on, they'll fly me up there to work with the board artists and stuff. And that's a crazy, that place is so nice.
It's like a wonderland. I mean, it's like this giant warehouse downstairs that they have all the stages and they're all covered with black velvet rope, I mean black velvet curtains. So to keep all the light out and everything. And that's where they're moving all the puppets and everything, the stop motion. And then upstairs it's like the offices, and it just feels like a corporate office building with cubicles and stuff. It's very weird. But you go downstairs and it's like there's people animating, there's this huge warehouse where they're building all the props and they're like armature section where they're adding all the skeletal armature to the You never went with us to, because Kapa was like that in a cup of coffee in Toronto when we did Glen Martin. Yeah, it was amazing though. Similar. But Kapa is doing it on a budget, and these guys are spending so much money, it's not a viable way to make money to make these animated stop motion animated movies.
They don't do it to make money. He does it. He loves it. Oh, really? Oh my gosh. Yeah, because Travis Knight is the son of Phil Knight who've gone to Nike, so he's got sort of a lot of money, and it's his hobby shoe money. He's got shoe money, but he is a brilliant animator. He is a super smart, interesting dude who wants to make things that are different than anybody else. And so it's an amazing place to work because nowhere else do you ever have the conversation of like, oh, we could do this if we wanted to do it, where more people would see it, or we could do it this way, which is cool and we want to do this. It's fun and weird.
Not that he doesn't care about an audience, he does care about an audience, but it's not most important to him is making something that's awesome to him for the art. And so it's a very different way of looking at things. But I've been in situations there where it's like we're doing upstairs, doing a rewrite with me and the director changing the whole third act or whatever, and then I go downstairs and just tour the stages and the workshops, and I'll meet a puppeteer who's like building this giant puppet who's telling me this is the biggest puppet that's ever been created in Stop motion, and here's the 17 different places where I can articulate it. And I'm just thinking like, dude, we cut that yesterday upstairs. Oh no. And he's been working on it for a month. Oh, no. But I can't say anything. I'm just sort of like, oh, yeah, that's awesome.
It's so great. You're doing great work. Anyway, I'm going to get back upstairs. That's so heartbreaking. But they burn through so much money just doing it all by hand. It's so crazy. But it's so beautiful, so I love it. And so you were literally upstairs, they gave you a small office and you just start typing? Yeah, that's literally, I mean, usually when I'm there, it's like they just put me in some random cubicle that nobody else is using or it's not a cubicle, a little office that is or whatever, somebody office. And you'll stay there for a few days or a few weeks or what? Yeah, exactly. Depending on how much they need me. So it either be a few days or a few weeks. And then on box rolls, I was up there. I would be up there for a week, relining some stuff, and then I'd come back home for two weeks and write those pages up.
And I mean, I'd be writing in the evenings after the meetings and stuff too, while I was up there. But when we are rewriting, it's a train that's moving and it's like the track is you're running on a track and you got to keep pressure. What did you think of staying there in Portland? Did you like it? I did it. It's hard because my family's here and life is here, but if that movie had gone that I was attached to Coder Act, we were planning on moving there for that for three or four years. That's how it would take. Interesting. Would you have sold your house here or just rented it out? I'd have rented it out, I think. Interesting. Yeah, you, it was like we were having all these conversations, and then it's the longer it goes, we're like, that's probably not going to happen.
We don't have to think about this right now. How interesting. That's so key. It really takes that long, man. Oh yeah. They're so long. And then also, it's like there is this weird thing in animation where it's not uncommon for a movie to go through two or three directors over the course of its many years in production. So it's like, why? I know. Just because they're beasts. And sometimes in the same way that you're changing the story so many times over the years, sometimes you make such a drastic change that it's no longer the vision of that director, and it's just not a right fit anymore. And I've seen that happen on a lot of movies that I've been on. I mean, Boxtrolls didn't end up with the same two directors that it started with. One of the two stayed on it, but the other one didn't.
Oh, no, this sounds very frustrating to me. It sounds It does. And then other movies up there have gone through different directors, and so I was like, even if I had gotten hired as the director, I was in the back of my head. I always knew this might not last even if I'll do my best and I'll try to make it work. But you haven't even started and you're finding I'm being fired. Yeah, totally. But I mean, it's a weird thing. It's not TV where you're on a show for a year and then hopefully you get the second year if you get one. It's like in movies, they fire and hire different writers all the time, and so directors less, but writers, it really is pretty common. I've been on both sides of it where it's like, I used to take it really harder, fired off a movie.
You're like, oh my God, did they not like the draft? I did. And usually it's like, no, we liked it, but now there's a director on it and they want to take a different direction. Or Oh, the director has a friend that they want to work with that they work with as a writer. Or other times I've been that guy that a director has brought on to rewrite somebody else, and I always try to be super nice about it. Now that I've seen both sides of it, I always try to reach out to the previous writer and be like, Hey, I just want you to know it's in good hands. Or sometimes if I'm the one that's fired, I reach out, be like, Hey, if you want to know where the skeletons are buried, happy to get in lunch with you. Just to be like, here's the pitfalls to look out for.
This is where people don't realize that people on the outside just don't realize what it's actually like when you're the writer. You're a successful working writer. And I think they have a very different vision of the reality of a hundred percent. I didn't know the job was, I thought the job was going to be writing the whole time. Most of the job is it's playing politics with the studio and the executives and the director and Well, what do you mean politics, getting navigating the notes? What do you mean? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's like the notes, but also the personalities. It's like a lot of the job I feel like is to go in and to make everybody feel comfortable with where you're taking it. Because you walk into a room and sometimes you could feel like, oh, the director thinks they're making a very different movie than the head of development thinks.
Then that's different than what the producer thinks. And that's different than what the head of the studio thinks. It's like I've been in a room where it's like Jeffrey Katzenberg is just like, guys, guys, guys, you're all thinking about this all wrong. And you just have to be like, okay, how can I find solutions that makes everybody happy, that make everybody happy? And that's a huge part of the job. I mean, honestly, when I did the Lego rewriting with Phil and Chris, that's what the whole job was, was just like, how do I make Warner Brothers who didn't know what they had? They thought it was a toy commercial. They were very skeptical of the whole thing, Phil and Chris, who wanted to make some beautiful art. And it was cool with cool ideas. And Lego Corporation who wanted to make a toy commercial and Lucasfilm who didn't want their characters to be in it, and DC who didn't know whether they should be or not.
And you're just like, how do I get in a room? And and usually if you come up with a great gag or great joke that articulates the, that illuminates the tone of the thing. So they all go, oh, okay. That's the thing. So the round of notes, like you're saying, oh, it's incredible, but for everybody and everyone's got conflicting. I don't even know walking into that job, and all I care about is I don't want my friends, Phil and Chris to think I fucked up their movie because they're trusting me just so I keep it moving. But I would think even for them, it's like, how do I get this movie made when I have so many competing notes and to their credit account, great, but still that is a hundred percent to their credit, they have a genius ability to, not only are they great writers and great directors, I think more than that, they have this sense of how to make everybody in a room think that the ideas came from them.
It's like, yeah, they're great at, they'll go into a room, I think sometimes having some ideas in their pocket, but it feels like the room came up with the ideas together, and then everybody's like, yes, we did it. Pat ourselves on the back. And everybody, the executives' seem happy. But sometimes it actually does come out that, I mean, those brainstorm sessions really do create a new idea, and sometimes it's them trusting the process that that's going to work out. And sometimes I think they literally are like, well, we can go this way or this way, but I know it'll be easier if they think they had the idea. So let's go this way for now. And then later they know it's going to change a thousand times anyway in the storyboards, and then they could figure it out for real later. Because all these see people like that.
They're very well paid, but in my opinion, they're earning every penny of this a hundred percent. They're earning every, it's not that easy. This job, I feel like I've gotten better over the years where I've taken my ego out of it. I used to have a much bigger ego, you might remember, but I feel like I can be, now, I can just go in a room and be like, I'm just going to try to help. I'm just going to be like, how could I make everybody feel comfortable? How can I make everybody feel like we're on the right page together and create this thing? I know that it's like the process is going to take years and years, and the relationship is more important than the individual story note or whatever. It's like that's what's going to matter over the long term of this project.
It's that we all trust each other and that we can make something great together. And that's more important than fighting for a joke or fighting for a story moment or a take, or even exactly, either. It's about fighting the relationship, and I've said this before, it's about the relationship is the most important thing, and sometimes you have to sacrifice what you think is the best story, the best moment for the greater good of the relationship. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Wow. I feel like this has been eyeopening even for me, and I feel like my eyes are fucking opened. You know what I'm saying?
We've done some movie work, but obviously we work mostly in tv, but the movie side, the movie side was never really appealing. I remember because we shared the same agent for our futures, and I remember he gave us a conversation. I was like, I dunno if I want to work in movies again. It's weird. It sounds hard. It's different because in TV you're the boss, right? I mean, when you're the showrunner, you're the boss. Yeah. You've been there for a long time. And in movies, you're never the boss. I mean, I gave up on, I mean, before I worked with you, there was one TV show I ran and I co ran with my friend Tim, and we were the bosses, and I hated it. I did not enjoy it. It was like all the meetings and all the decisions and the budgets and the interpersonal relationships and all that stuff.
I was like, I was not good at it back then, and I don't know if I'd be better now, and I just was like, you know what? I just want to be part of a team and I want to be a writer. And it's like in movies, that's what you are. You're just part of this big team in a different way. I mean, I guess when you're a staff writer or coming up through the ranks and tv, you're part of a team too, but you can be like, you're also a much more integral part of the team, the one writer on it at the time. Or in movies, you're like, when you're the writer, you're the writer and they all look to you for that one job. Or if you're on a staff when I'm on a show with you or whatever, you might look to me for one type of, it's very different. I'm a cog in this room.
It's never, you never have to be a hundred percent on your A game every day for you can showing it in a little bit coast. Wow. Adam Paval, what an interesting conversation. This is enlightening for me. Very enlightening. Yeah, man. Are you having everybody on from the old days, Brian? Well, I had Alex Berger on a while ago. We talked a little bit about that script that you guys wrote together. Well, there's two things on Glen Martin. You were always pestering me to do a musical. Yeah, I think, I don't know how to write a musical. And you're like, this is why I've work in animated features. I've written three musicals since I, so lemme let you do the movie. I was like, dude, I don't know how to do so go ahead and knock yourself out. That was fun. And then you guys came back with that Christmas episode. I thought you guys both hit it out of the park. I was like, let's shoot it, let's shoot it.
I think it took, because that was all second year stuff and it took a little bit of time to figure out tonally what we were doing and then just to get a little crazier. And then, I mean, those episodes were like, yeah, I could be a little bit more myself of writing the weird stuff that I wanted. I mean, the other one I remember fondly is that weird Funshine episode. Was that the musical one or was that, I don't remember. Dude, fun cine was, it was like the planned community in Florida that was basically celebration Florida and they all realized that everybody was on being drugged and were lactating out of their breast and all that. Oh, that's right. Now I remember the guy, there was a scene where there's a pregnant man or something. It was fucking nuts. And I was like, oh, now we're writing the show that I could write.
The first year, I think it was a little bit more like I was a little square pa in a round hole where it was like I didn't have a family at the time and it was a family show. It was about a dad and a mom trying to navigate their crazy kids and I was like, I don't know what the fuck. Crazy in that show. It's a shame. We didn't do more seasons. We weren't nuts. It was fun. It was a fun time. For sure. I got some of the puppies right over there, so see, yeah, I got the one you gave me of me that one from the college episode. Oh right, the college episode. That's right. We put you in. You ran the gauntlet I think, didn't you? I think that, yeah, that's exactly right. Funny. Yeah, funny. Adam, Papa, where can people, is there anything want, we can plug people, find you.
Are you on social media? Is there anything? I'm not super active. I'm on Twitter. You can find me on Twitter. Adam Papa or Adam or whatever it's called now. X X, I'm on X, but don't really, I'm not super active on it. I don't have anything to plug. Everything's going to come out in four years. Yeah, right. Yeah. Look for Adam Papa in four years when something drops to the movies. That's the process. Dude, thank you again so much for doing this. This was a really interesting conversation. I haven't talked yet, spoken to anybody about this kind of stuff. You are a wealth of information. Alright. Yeah, it's fine. Everyone, thank you so much. Until the next episode drops, which will be next week. Keep writing.
Phil Hudson:
This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear this with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar @michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.
In August, I hosted a webinar called "How To Write A Great Story" where I talked about what a "story" really is, as well as well as how to use personal stories to help your writing. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.
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Michael Jamin:
Art is about taking something inside of you and expressing it in a way that helps you understand yourself and helps you understand the world around you. And in that way, people can see it or watch it and enjoy it and help them understand themselves. I think there's that greater good. I don't think craft necessarily does that. I think craft can sometimes be, the studio will give me a note and I'll say, okay, I can do that. That's what you want. I can do that. I don't think it's necessarily playing for the greater good. It's what they want and they're paying me. You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.
Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode. We're doing something unusual today. So Phil is back with me. And as you may know, every three or four weeks I host a free webinar where I take one subject and kind of educate you on it. And at the end, if there's time, I answer questions because about an hour long. And so usually we answer a lot of questions, but we can't get to all of them. So we save the questions that we can answer and we didn't have time. And we're going to answer it here for you today on this podcast. And by the way, for people who don't know, the webinar is always free, but afterwards, I also do a V I P room for people who if they want to pay a small fee, then they get to be in a smaller chat with me and we talk. I try to answer their questions as best I can specifically. So if anyone's interested in that, you go to michael jamin.com and I dunno where they would sign up for that on michael jamin.com/course. Probably.
Phil Hudson:
Oh, for the vip it's /vip.
Michael Jamin:
Oh, /vip. Okay.
Phil Hudson:
We're fancy here, Michael. We use high tech stuff like links, short links.
Michael Jamin:
So there you go. But now I'll answer the other questions. Phil hit me.
Phil Hudson:
I was just going to say there are a lot of really good feedback and I found that there are people who don't sign up for your course who also sign up for that v i p, and they ask some really interesting questions. And then after that I think it kind of pushes 'em over the edge to feel like, okay, this is something I can do, and then they're a little bit more inclined to invest in themselves. Some really good questions out of this V i p, and this is based off of the August webinar, and that topic was the pep talk Every screenwriter needs to hear, which is slightly different than Michael Jamin's known tone of just smashing your hopes and dreams on the rocks of reality,
Michael Jamin:
Which he's a problem. Yeah, I don't want to just do that. I want to make sure that people get, I want them to be grounded in reality. That's what I'm, I'm not trying to smash it's dreams, but I want to be realistic. Once you find out if you know what the reality is, then now, okay, now we can figure out how to get in once there's a way around every problem. That's what I,
Phil Hudson:
And that comes from early on when we were talking about the marketing for this. How do we help you grow your audience? How do we do this? And you were like, I will not sell the dream. I will not be one of those guys who just promises the dream to make a buck. I can't do that. And I was like, okay, well, it's going to hurt your ability to make money. He's like, it's not about that. I just will not do it. And so you've leaned into this sincere, radical honesty, I guess you could say, and I think overwhelmingly almost immediately people were like, wow, this sucks to hear, but I'm so glad you're saying it. It just resets the expectations a little bit. And even for me, having learned from you and been to film school and worked in the industry now for almost seven years, I still think about this, Hey, this is a script. Whenever I write a new script, this is not, I'm not going to sell this. That's okay.
Michael Jamin:
It's a writing sample
Phil Hudson:
And it frees me up to just be whatever I want it to be, not hoping that my entire life is dedicated to this one story I'm writing.
Michael Jamin:
I see good things coming your way, Phil, by the way.
Phil Hudson:
I see good things coming my way as
Michael Jamin:
Well. Yeah, because you're putting the work in and obviously you've already, it may be hard for you to see because you're in it, but the distance that you've traveled at only a few short years in Hollywood is pretty unremarkable.
Phil Hudson:
I'm keenly aware of that. Honestly, I'm humbled to be where I am. I'm humbled to host the podcast with you. I think I even pitched somebody else to co-host the podcast with you, and you're like, why wouldn't you do it? Why can't I just have you?
I don't need to, or I don't want to assume to be the guy. I do think I bring a skillset to this podcast of asking the questions the listener wants to ask, and I think that's really what I do. But yeah, I'm incredibly humbled. I think I've got some really interesting things on the horizon, and I've already had some great things this year as direct result of you and the stuff you're putting out in your course and the great feedback I'm getting from people in your course, by the way, super talented people in there just giving me feedback and making me better.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
Thank you Michael. Alright,
Michael Jamin:
Let's do it.
Phil Hudson:
Okay. Structurally, we broke this up into a couple and we've kind of found a pattern here. There's kind of craft questions, there are breakin questions, there are course questions, and then there are miscellaneous questions. So I take all the questions, kind of broke 'em down, and then I'm really focusing on things that you haven't said before because there are a lot of questions we get that are repetitive questions. Should I move to la? Should I move to la? What about this? How do I get my script in the right hands? And you've addressed those tons and tons of times. So if you like this, go listen to all the other q and A's where we get questions from social media, we get questions from your course members, we get questions from the webinar starting with craft, because I think that's really what we're here to learn is how to be professional writers. I'm going to mess up a bunch of names today. You ready for this?
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, that's okay.
Phil Hudson:
Shi suey, shagan. No clue
Michael Jamin:
That you said it perfectly, however,
Phil Hudson:
Nailed it. How do you win the battle against that blank screen when trying to create?
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Well, the problem is you don't know what you're doing. Listen, the blank page is always intimidating even when you do know what you're doing. But if you are this locked up, it's because you just don't know what a story is and you don't know. That's what the course teaches you. How to take an idea, identify if there's enough meat on that bone to turn it into an episode of television or a movie or whatever. Not every idea is worth turning into. It doesn't have enough there. So the course helps with that. I think all that the writer's block that you're experiencing is because you don't know what you're doing. Of course you're going to be blocked. Of course you don't know what your characters are going to be doing, so at least come to the free webinar, at least I can help you with that much if you don't want to buy the course. The webinar will help a lot at michaeljamin,com/webinar
Phil Hudson:
And all the other free resources you have, like the free story lesson on your website, michaeljamin.com/free. It's another great place to start. Absolutely true. If you don't know where you're going to go, you get stuck. And for many of us, it's that middle of act two, what's going on? What do I do now? How do I get my characters to this really bad thing that's going to happen? Whatever it is. And understanding the structure as you put it out, it's just so easy to grasp and understand. It's a no brainer. I clearly know where I need to go and what needs to happen here from a strategic perspective, and then tactically I can lay in things to get me where I want in a surprising way.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
Perfect. Oh, if I may, when you're rewriting, print that thing out and use a red pen, man.
Michael Jamin:
Red pen.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. Michael Michael's pro tip hand amboy. What is the best way to keep improving in screenwriting or storytelling?
Michael Jamin:
Just keep writing. I would write your episode or your feature, put it aside, write another one, put it aside, write another one, and you'll find that as opposed to just keep on working on the same piece, finish it and write a second one, then the third one, and you'll find that script number five is much better than script number one will ever be. You have to just let it go and continue doing something else. So that's my advice.
Phil Hudson:
Awesome. Chelsea. Steve, how in depth do you prepare a beat sheet or treatment to pass to a co-writer? Is it important to be specific or broad out of respect for them?
Michael Jamin:
Oh, well, I mean, you should be doing the beat sheets together. I mean, I would think that's how you get on the same page. My partner and I do everything together. We break the story together. We come up with a beat sheet together. We come up with the outline together. That's how you do it. I mean, you don't want to, if they're your partner, I dunno why you wouldn't bounce ideas of each other that's, or else why have a partner.
Phil Hudson:
Another really early podcast episode we had was writing with a partner where you talk about this process and there are several schools of thought about how to work with a writing partner. There are tons of resources and different writing have different things. One person sits at a keyboard, the other does, and I think you guys do that that way. Yeah.
Michael Jamin:
Vers been, I used to be the one at the keyboard, but for the last couple of years he's been the one at the keyboard. Although now we both have, we use collaborate so we both can type at the same time, which is really annoying.
Phil Hudson:
That's awesome. Yeah, so there's a bunch of that and there are other people who do it, but I think the real juice of what we're saying here, what you're saying, Michael, is you shouldn't be breaking your story separate. That's not Yeah,
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, yeah. You got to be on the same page.
Phil Hudson:
Yep. All
Michael Jamin:
I'll tell a quick anecdote. One time Steve and I were working on a script for, I think it was Taco fd, and we were writing the outline together and we got into a fight over what this one scene was supposed to be. And I wanted one thing, he wanted another thing. And then I said, what do you think this story is about? And he told me, and then he goes, what do you think the story is about? I said, I think it's about this. We weren't even clear on what the story was about, so we had to stop, agree on that and then move forward.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, that cleared up everything, I'm guessing.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. Great. Nina in your course, isn't she? Yeah. Yeah. Nina, I'm so worried about alienating my audience for too long. Is there a theory about this
Michael Jamin:
Alienating? I wish I knew. In what way? I feel like you want to hold your audience's hand. That's how I feel. There are other filmmakers who may feel differently when I get lost. Sometimes when I watch watching, I'm like, I'm lost here. I dunno what's going on. And so that's not something that I like to do in my writing. I like to make sure that, especially if you're writing on television, because you're writing on tv, you go into a movie is one thing. You have their attention. There are hostage if they're sitting in the movie theater, but on TV show often people will be on their phone, they're reading a magazine, they're doing everything at the same time as watching a TV show. So I want to make sure they're with me the whole way or else they're not going to be engaged.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. I wondered about this one too. What does she mean by alienating, right? I don't think you ever want to really alienate your audience. I think there's suspense, there's audience superior versus audience inferior. Does your audience know more than the character? Does the audience know less than the character does? And there's different tactics and tools you can use as a writer to build suspense, and they each have their own purpose, but alienating would be, yeah,
Michael Jamin:
That's not on my list of things to do.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. Sorry Nina, if we had the misunderstanding here, but let us know in the private Facebook group putting us in there with a clarification, and I'm sure Michael hopin
Michael Jamin:
Into that. Just to be clear, the private Facebook group is just for members of my course, so you have to be a paid member to get into that. But there's a lot of good stuff going on there. These people are very active, and I answer more questions there for them.
Phil Hudson:
We'll jump down because there's literally this question under the section Mark Brozinsky. Is there a Facebook group we can join to network?
Michael Jamin:
Yes, there is. And once you purchase, you get a link to that and you should definitely take advantage of it. There's a lot of really smart people trading scripts. They're doing table reads once a week. They're giving each other notes film festival. And it's unlike, they got a festival coming up, which I can't believe, and it's unlike, there are other Facebook screenwriting groups where people are pretty mean. It's almost like Reddit, screenwriting Reddit, which is the dirtiest place on the earth, but that's not what this is going on in this group. It's really very professional and supportive. I think we were smart to gate that group and say, you have to be purchased because it hasn't turned into a cesspool.
Phil Hudson:
I can tell you from the e-learning side of my digital marketing career, that when people ask, and we had this conversation with the client a year ago when they were relaunching their online membership course for a specific topic, but anyway, very well renowned company, lots of people. And I said, you need to have a community manager that's in there full-time, keeping out the R riffraff. There's spam, there's ugliness, there's all these things. And if you don't have someone doing that, it's just going to get bad. And most of these things are set up by one or two people who just wanted to start a group. And I've had nothing but bad experiences in those groups. Nothing but bad experiences unless there is some unifying factor, like an alumni group tends to perform a little bit better, be in easier place, you have a problem.
Michael Jamin:
But we don't have that problem with our group. Nope.
Phil Hudson:
In fact, you have people who self-police. I get messages from people who are like, Hey, I shared this thing. Did I break a policy of self-promotion? I was like, you shared something you produced that came out of the course. I don't think, I think that's celebrating your hard work. You're not offering to pay to read someone's script. You're donating your time every Tuesday night to run a table
Michael Jamin:
Group. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Phil Hudson:
You're good.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, you're good.
Phil Hudson:
Awesome. Tomer K. I've noticed in the blacklist scripts that there's a trend of making meta commentary about the script itself. Referencing page numbers or the reader. What are your thoughts on this? And maybe define what the blacklist is for people?
Michael Jamin:
Well, yeah, I mean, the blacklist, there's really, the blacklist started as a site where unproduced professional scripts that were sold were just never produced. And it was an honor to get on the blacklist, but now there's something, now it's something else. There's two lists, right, Phil?
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, there's that list. But then there's also, you can sign up for the blacklist and pay a monthly fee to host your script so people can access it and read it and give you notes. And you can pay a hundred bucks a pop to get notes and reader feedback on your script and get rated. And that's a little bit, I think more of the commercial side of it.
Michael Jamin:
Isn't that what they're talking about?
Phil Hudson:
That's the blacklist. There's also fellowships and things. So by no means are either of us knocking the blacklist. It's just a difference in what this is. And I think what they're referencing is the original that you're talking about,
Michael Jamin:
The original list. They're thinking. There's a lot of meta jokes in it and meta references.
Phil Hudson:
I've not read them, but I believe that's what they're saying. That is the blacklist I placed on the blacklist top unproduced scripts.
Michael Jamin:
Oh, so I can't answer it then.
Phil Hudson:
But from a style perspective, do you think that's an appropriate style of writing?
Michael Jamin:
Well, if they got on the blacklist, on the legit blacklist by doing this, who am I to say? No, I just think it tends to be cheap. Breaking the fourth wall or meta. You got to really be careful. Ryan Reynolds says that well in the Deadpool, but it can become a crutch and it becomes, the problem was when you do it, you're telling the audience, this is a movie, and it takes them out of it. You've sucked them into it. This is how I feel. When I first started, I thought all this meta jokes were great. Isn't that funny? Where self-referential isn't that interesting? But now that I've matured as a writer, I feel like you're spending all this time and energy to suck people into world, to make them suspend disbelief. And now you're going to pop it with a joke, and now you got to put more energy, get 'em back into it. I don't like it. I think I don't like it. Others can feel differently though.
Phil Hudson:
And in the Deadpool comics, he would break the fourth wall. So that is not something that he's doing in film. He's living in the character. And I think it's something everyone expects from Deadpool, but he's going to have a commentary with you, and it's Ryan Reynolds. If there's anyone who can do that, it's Ryan Reynolds. Right? I could do that. I don't know many people who could fourth wall just for people. I just want to make sure everyone's clear on that. It comes from stage place specifically where there are three walls, and then there's a line, and that line is three walls or the set, and then the fourth wall is the audience. And so they're either facing the audience or they're communicating with each other, but they don't turn to speak to the audience unless it's a narrator or it's someone else having, there's a specific need for that.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Fourth and wall is when you literally acknowledge that there's an audience watching your play, which is kind of odd, but it can be fun.
Phil Hudson:
Some of the first screenwriting courses I ever paid for talked about that. I was supposed to know what it was, and I got so lost. I had to go look it up. And man, that was very confusing. So I want to make sure we define that for people. Yeah, yeah. Projecting much, Phil. Cool. Pf, oh, I wanted to ask, I have a follow-up question on this. So there are screenwriting books that are kind of renowned, specifically story books by Robert McKee, more so than screenwriting books, where he says It is cheap for a writer to reference. We see, we hear, and I actually write in that style, and I get a lot of really good feedback on that. We see this happen. That's just a personal choice. I don have a problem with it. I've never had no bump on it. You read my scripts, you've never bumped on it. To be clear in the book, he clarifies that overused in the transition from, I want to say it was like it might've been silent films to specific moving into something else. So it was as a crutch, people leaned on at a certain point in the 1990, in 19 hundreds. So maybe we've got past that watch is why it doesn't bump. But I said, you answered the question, you don't care.
So that's not breaking the fourth wall in that.
Michael Jamin:
No, no, no, no, no. You're just, yeah, that's a stage direction.
Phil Hudson:
Yep. Awesome. Yeah. To me, I'm inferring camera movement more than anything. Yeah.
Michael Jamin:
Okay,
Phil Hudson:
Cool. P F H, should I vet my idea before I write it so I have an idea to pitch? But once you know it is doable, then I can perfect it. Basically, I had to rewrite this question. It was a bit confusing. Does that make sense?
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. I think what they're asking is, this is what I would do. You have an idea of a movie for a movie or a TV show or whatever, put it in a sentence or two sentences and then pitch it to a friend. And if you can't explain it succinctly, then you've got a problem. So just saying it out loud, even if you don't have a friend saying it out loud, describing it is a good waste to the, oh, okay. I know what the story is. Sometimes you don't even know what it is and you can't clarify. So for sure, say it out loud and see if your friend is interested. If that sounds grabby, it might not be.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. In that two sentences, would you say that separate from a log line, or would you call it a log?
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, that's basically a log line. But if you want to expand, if you want to make it a paragraph, if you find that a log line is like two sentences, but if you want to make it a paragraph, that's fine too. But don't make it a page. Just make it short and brief.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. One script, early script, I wrote, the log line was about a small town. It's about a small town pastor who kills people. And it was interesting. See your face. That's an interesting enough logline. Yeah, I'd be interested in that. And then the questions are, well, what's it about? Why does he kill people?
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. I would go a little more detailed than that because if you pitched me out, I would say, maybe tell me more.
Phil Hudson:
Correct. And it's really more of an elevator pitch than anything. It's just a way to just slide it in. But the log line would be a full two sentences. Yeah. Cool. Course related question. Only one other. Today, melody, we answer a lot of these questions throughout the webinars. There's not a ton of these. Melody Jones, I have to do major research for my project. Should I take the course first or get my research done, then do the course?
Michael Jamin:
Oh, I would say take the course first. That way you know what kind of questions to ask and look for. Unfortunately, we couldn't answer this for her, probably live. But yeah, you may start asking yourself questions that you don't even need the answers to. So
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, I would absolutely agree. In fact, the script I'm writing right now, I am doing a lot of research on, because it has a technical skillset that I am very familiar with, but I don't know the intricacies of. And so by doing my research, I'm looking into that. But I broke the script first from a story perspective, not a plot perspective. I said, what's the story? What do I want to tell? What's going to happen? How are my relationships going to play out? And now it's looking at it thematically to say, how can I utilize this experience they're going through from a technical perspective to elevate that story or to add stressors? How can I use this to get to this part where they get in an argument or whatever? So
Michael Jamin:
Absolutely. What's also interesting, side note, but I'm rewatching Wolf of Wall Street, and I may be a quarter of the way through, but every fricking scene that I'm watching right now, everyone is interesting. The acting is brilliant, but every scene is written. There's something really interesting going on each scene. There's nothing lazy about that script. It's like, if you watch, you could show me one scene. I'd be like, Ooh, that's good. So think about that when you're writing your script. Is this scene amazing or not? Because that one, it was movie. Every scene is amazing.
Phil Hudson:
That's awesome. Yeah. You guys are freebie for you guys. I love that. All right. Breaking in. You ready to talk about breaking into Hollywood? Sure. Cool. There's a curse word in here. So to keep our non explicit label on the podcast F the Void, is there a chance for writers that are not from the US to find success in Hollywood? Like say, south American writers that want to make you big?
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Well, there was that guy. Sure. I mean, the guy, the writer who did, ah, man, what was he? Australian? No, he was South African. It's the, ah, man. What was that movie called? District nine.
Phil Hudson:
And he did a bunch of stuff. They're all great.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. And so for sure, you can make your stuff wherever you are. And to some degree, if you make a TV show in a foreign country other than the us, often it's easier to sell those shows to the US because it's IP that already exists. And for some reason, sometimes studios want that. So Wilfred, for example, I wrote on Wilfred, that was an Australian show. It did really well in Australia, and we adapted it for America here. It's not uncommon at all. So yeah, don't let that hold you back from creating great stuff.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. From a purely cinema history perspective, a lot of the best cinematography came out of Mexico when Eisenstein moved there. So there's great stuff. You've got Rito, you've got all these amazing filmmakers coming out of Central South America. And North America. You've got Tero Titi out in New Zealand. You
Michael Jamin:
Got right. I'm going to mention him. There's a movie, I'm just, I'm going to search it right now. Yeah. There's a movie I watched a couple of days ago, the Worst Person in the World. It's a Norwegian movie. Loved it, loved it. Thought it was so well done. The title was terrible. What's the title? But everything about the movie was great, except for the title. The Worst Person in the World. Yeah, go watch that. Yes.
Phil Hudson:
But there's some great films even just come out of Europe, the UK and Europe, which I think we're going to get. That's the next question is uk, maybe that one we answered in the thing. But anyway, but it's like once that musical is just fantastic and it's out of the uk. So yeah, I think oftentimes people group like UK and America is Hollywood, but they are different. You have BAFTA and you have the B, B C and the way they do their things, and then you have Hollywood. And the other thing to keep in mind too is with streaming, I mean, I get a lot of recommendations for Spanish films and TV on my Netflix, and they don't know that I speak Spanish.
Michael Jamin:
I think they Do
Phil Hudson:
You think they figured it out? I think they
Michael Jamin:
Do, man. They might. You'd be surprised. But
Phil Hudson:
I get some Korean stuff too. I get
Michael Jamin:
Ads in Spanish because I speak Spanish too. I'm like, why? How do they know
Phil Hudson:
It's not zip code related? Maybe it's zip code related. Maybe it's just la, right? But yeah, anyway, I get a lot of that stuff. And so just because maybe you get something and you sell it to Netflix, Ecuador, and then all of a sudden it's being streamed all over the world. You've got all of the Spanish channels, and then you make it here. I have to, ah, here's a great example. Squid Games, squid Games, South Korea blew up huge. Right? Huge. Parasite. Parasite. South Korea.
Michael Jamin:
But there's a catch. It has to be good.
Phil Hudson:
Better than good has to be great,
Michael Jamin:
Right? Yeah. It has to be great.
Phil Hudson:
But that's the role for everyone in Hollywood too. And there's a lot of people here who are not willing to put in the effort to get to that. Right? Yeah. And I guess follow up question from F the void, do you know any writers that are not from the US or any first world country that have made it in Hollywood?
Michael Jamin:
Well, I've had Canadian writers on my show before on the podcast. You can ask them how they did it. Other, if you come from a non-English speaking country, you're going to have a more difficult time in the sense that even if your English is really good, it may not be perfect unless you've been here a long, long time. And so that's the catch. It's hard for you to write dialogue in a language that it's not your first language. It may
Phil Hudson:
IMS idioms and all that other stuff too.
Michael Jamin:
So you do need to have really, not just a firm grasp of the language, but you really have to know it. You have to speak as well as a native speaker, but with just maybe just a slight accent. That's the only catch.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. But there are also things like Selena, there's a girl I went to film school with, and she's a writer on Selena, and she's from Mexico, and she's a second. She just got naturalized just a bit ago, but she's right around Selena before she was a US citizen.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, often. Interesting. Yeah. So if you get on a, there's demand for people with diverse backgrounds if the show is about that background. So
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, it absolutely was. I think that whole writing staff were Latin American.
Michael Jamin:
Right? Right. Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.
Phil Hudson:
Cole, our film festival is a good route to take for a script you wrote to get looked at.
Michael Jamin:
Well, you're not looking at it. You're shooting it, right? I'm not sure what the question is.
Phil Hudson:
Film festivals often have screenwriting screenplay contests attached to them.
Michael Jamin:
Oh,
Phil Hudson:
Interesting. And I can tell you, having been on staff for many of those indie film festivals, that is what pays the screenwriting contest is what pays for the cocktail hours and for the other things.
Michael Jamin:
So you're saying it's not really a way to be discovered?
Phil Hudson:
It depends on the film festival.
Michael Jamin:
Right. Oh, okay.
Phil Hudson:
Alright. So there are film festivals that I think matter. I think they're also, I think what you really want to talk about. We actually do a webinar on a little bit deeper on this, which is available on your website to purchase for like 29 bucks worth watching. Which
Michael Jamin:
One is that? Which episode was that?
Phil Hudson:
I think it's how to get past Industry Gatekeepers.
Michael Jamin:
Oh, okay.
Phil Hudson:
I want to say that's what it was. Yeah. Thanks for clarifying. But yeah, I think what you really want to look for are fellowships fellowship. So you have the Sundance Film Festival and their fellowships that they offer there. Blacklist has a fellowship. You have the academy, the Nichols Fellowship. Awesome Film Festival comes up in another question here. That's one. That's a film festival where they do give screenwriting contests awards, and there are industry people who attend that. So it's a different thing. Tribeca, some of those bigger ones, south by Southwest. If they have those options, maybe go for those. But if you're talking about the Westborough, whatever film festival, maybe skip it. Maybe Skip Save the 40 Bucks on Film Freeway.
Michael Jamin:
Okay. You heard of the film. He knows more about this than I do.
Phil Hudson:
Daniel Celiac, poor guy. If someone is still in high school or early in college, what can they do to get closer to the industry?
Michael Jamin:
Stay where you are and just write, write and make your own stuff. As a kid, I shot my own stuff on a super eight camera. Now you can shoot on your phone. I didn't have sound back then. Just keep working on your craft and read anything and get inspired by our art. Draw upon it. Don't look for a job right now. I mean, if you want to look for a job as an intern or PA or something, that's fine. But don't start thinking about starting your film, writing your screenwriting career. Just start working on Become a good writer. That's the first step.
Phil Hudson:
And I was going to suggest PA Intern Volunteer. I started volunteering at the Sunrise Film Festival because that's all I could do. And it was because I was in the recession of 2008, nine, and I just had to work and I had to work two jobs. And so I would volunteer at the Sunrise Film Festival, and I put in those hours for four years. And then that's how I got my first real break through Sundance to do some stuff aside from the work I was doing and how I met you. We've talked about previously, great bv. Michael mentions moving to Hollywood if you're serious. What about those in the uk, for example, who physically cannot get a Visa to move there?
Michael Jamin:
Right. Well, there is an industry in the uk. I mean, they do make great movies and great TV shows there. So I don't know what cities, if it's London, I don't know where the centers are, but stay where you are and become great in your country, and then we'll get you, we'll send a visa your way
Phil Hudson:
When we want that. There's a specific visa that gets you over. It's like you're an expert in your field that America wants to profit off of you by taking taxes.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. The minute America sees dollar signs on you instead of just pound signs,
Phil Hudson:
You get that special visa.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
Great. Bv, I just got your pound sign joke, by the way. That was clever.
Michael Jamin:
Thank you,
Phil Hudson:
Bev. No, I did that one. Lauren Gold. Any specific tips for fiction novel writers who want to transition to screenwriting?
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, create, write a bestselling book, and it'll be so easy. They will, Hollywood will come after you with buying their rights, but if you have a book that's not selling, honestly, the book doesn't even have to be good. It just has to be a bestseller because then it comes with the built-in market, and so is 50 Shades of Gray High Literature. I'm not sure, but I know a lot of people read it and loved it, and so they turned out into a movie. So it's about marketing. So these bestsellers have a built-in marketplace and look at a lot of these movies that are being made. They're adapted from movies. They're just hit books or hit books.
Phil Hudson:
And it can also be other things like The Martian, right? It was originally a blog post, a series of blog posts that we, on his
Michael Jamin:
Website. Right? I know it was a self-published book. I didn't know it started from blog posts.
Phil Hudson:
I believe it was a blog. He would post blog posts. He would publish basically a new chapter as a blog post was bought, and then he would spin on from there.
Michael Jamin:
So there's a guy who wasn't asking for permission, he wasn't waiting to be discovered. He did it anyway. He built the mountain himself
Phil Hudson:
At Twilight. Those were stories that she would tell her sister. And she brought that book and blew up. Yeah. Cultural phenomenon.
Michael Jamin:
Twilight was self-published. Did not know that.
Phil Hudson:
My understanding is that, yeah, I believe it was. And someone else, correct me if we're wrong, they'll definitely scream at me because it's such a big hit. That being said, I believe 50 Shades of Gray is a fan fiction of Twilight. That's at least what I've heard.
Michael Jamin:
I didn't know that. Okay.
Phil Hudson:
Awesome. I'm going to just offend half your audience who love those two franchises.
Michael Jamin:
That's okay.
Phil Hudson:
You're welcome, everybody. Rob, as I produced my own plays, staged comedy shows and web series for a while, great. Now is a way to break in. Is this a valid way of doing it? Does the industry care about any of this?
Michael Jamin:
Yes, of course. But the problem is you're doing all these great things, but maybe you're putting the work in, which is great, but maybe it's not good enough yet. It's okay. Keep doing it until you get good. Or maybe it's great, but it hasn't found an audience yet. So it does need to have an audience. The minute you have your web series gets discovered by a couple million people, Hollywood will find you because you are bringing more to the table than just your desire to cash a check. You are bringing an audience. But if you don't have that yet, then one or two things are happening. One is maybe your writing isn't good enough yet, or your show is not good enough yet, yet means you can keep working on yourself. Or maybe they haven't found you yet in that's the case. You still have to keep putting it out there just until you're found, until your audience finds you. Either way, you have to keep doing it. That's it.
Phil Hudson:
Andrew Spitzer, would you agree that ultimately you're selling yourself and your skills rather than a product? You got
Michael Jamin:
To bring more to the table, and like I said, than just a script. And so what am I doing on here? I'm selling myself. I suppose I have a following on social media. It helps me get more opportunities. And so I still have a body of work and people know that I'm a good writer. But yeah, I come with this other end, this other, I bring more to the table than just me,
Phil Hudson:
Just my work brother. Sorry. Yeah, and I took this too. No, no. It's your podcast, man. I'm sorry. I stuck on your toes, Mr. Jamin. I did it again right there.
Michael Jamin:
No,
Phil Hudson:
I was going to say I took this as an, I think it's a bit of both, and I think the order is a little bit different, but my perspective of this, you have a product. That product is so valuable to someone that they want to buy it because you were able to craft that product. And because of that, now your skill sets are valuable and you are now selling your ability to continue to craft products like that one. So you have to have a sample that you've already checked the box. You can make these people money. If you can't do that, there is no evidence of your ability and your skillset. So there's nothing to sell.
Michael Jamin:
Okay.
Phil Hudson:
But I think it goes for your script. I think it goes for getting an agent. I think it goes for getting a manager. I think it goes for opening doors to meet people. You have to have something that is valuable to them. And it might be audience like you were just talking about. That might be enough, right? It might be your IP from the story you wrote and self-published.
Michael Jamin:
Sometimes it'll be approached by an actor, a big actor who has a terrible idea for a show or whatever, because you're going to be in it. And so you're a good actor. So that's bringing a lot to the table, their presence.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. Sidebar here. Is there truth in the statement that there are certain actors who are not able to open a movie, who are not able to, that they come and they might have a name you'd recognize, and they might have some idea of a following, but they're not necessarily someone a studio would bank on?
Michael Jamin:
For sure, but I can speak more to this from the TV side, but for sure, I know even John Travolta, Quentin Tarantino wanted to cast Travolta in Pulp Fiction. And I think there was some pushback from the studios. He was a, has been. He was a washout, even though super talented guy. And Tarantino saw him and thought, dude, this guy is still a huge star. He can't walk down the street without people yelling. Vinny Bobino, people love him. And so he pushed, he fought for him, even though the studio didn't believe he could open a movie, and he did open a movie.
Phil Hudson:
He did. Did he ever?
Michael Jamin:
And then think of all the other opportunities that came because of that. But sure, the studios, at the end of the day, they're not so concerned with, is this actor a good actor? They want to know, can this actor put asses in seats? Will they sell tickets? And that's why some actors were not particularly good actors or great actors, but they can put asses in seats. That's what counts.
Phil Hudson:
Yep. Awesome. That's what I thought. I just wanted to get some confirmation there. This is a Phil Hudson q and a. Are everybody I can ask my questions too. Awesome. Lappe two TV or Lippe tv, whatever. If a short film is being optioned to pitch as a series, is it better to keep the short hidden while it's being shopped around, or is it okay to post it online?
Michael Jamin:
Well, it's
Phil Hudson:
A bit of a one percenter for you, right?
Michael Jamin:
This is
Phil Hudson:
A one off question.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. If you put your short on YouTube or whatever, and it gets a million views, it's a lot easier to sell. It's a lot easier to sell.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. What I got from this question is, I made a short, somebody has optioned that short. Is it a mistake to now put that on YouTube? Does that advice still apply there?
Michael Jamin:
You'd have to talk to the person who optioned it, because now it's theirs. They have the rights to go to talk to them.
Phil Hudson:
Cool. Len Lawson, should I ask a potential producer to sign an N D A before reading my script?
Michael Jamin:
I wouldn't. But it depends who, I've never done that. But also, don't show it to the producer who's got a handlebar mustache. Who are you showing it to? Make sure what have they done? Look 'em up on I mdb. Are they legit or are they just someone who's claiming to be a producer? In which case, you better build a rapport with them. You better know whether you can trust this person or not. But I wouldn't. I would never ask. And I've told my scripts to tons of people. I don't ask for an N D A.
Phil Hudson:
I wouldn't either. It's just friction. I think about this in terms of friction, and we talk about adopting habits or influencing people to take action. There's this whole nuance of digital marketing called conversion rate optimization, which is, how do I get more people to take the action I want them to on my website, whether it's the headline or it's the colors or it's pattern interrupts, or if it's offers or bullet points, all that stuff. And to me, you want to reduce friction. How do I remove obstacles? And in sales, the best way to overcome an objection is to kill the objection before it becomes one. And that's a massive objection.
Michael Jamin:
Were to, I'm not a producer. I'm not an agent. I don't want to read anybody's script. I'd say right up front, I'm not. But if someone were to ask me for the favor, say, Hey, will you read my script? And then for some reason I was feeling magnanimous that day as opposed to every other day of the year, then I would say, all right, I'll read your script. And then they asked to ask me to sign an nda, a I'd like, forget it. The deal's off.
Phil Hudson:
We're done.
Michael Jamin:
We're done.
Phil Hudson:
And that's what you're doing.
Michael Jamin:
But
Phil Hudson:
I think it also speaks to the psychology of people who are breaking in, who are so concerned. Someone's going to steal their idea. And that's one of the most prominent questions we get. This is that question asked a different way.
Michael Jamin:
Everyone is so convinced that they have an idea that's worth stealing. That's the funny part. Everyone thinks their script is gold, and most of 'em are not.
Phil Hudson:
By most, we mean a lot of them. A 99.99. And that's a hard thing for me to admit too, guys. I thought I was going to win an Oscar with my first script. I thought I was that prodigy. I've talked about Prodigy syndrome before on the podcast. I thought that was me, and it's not. And letting go of that's been so freeing for my creativity and my enjoyment of the process. So just look at it this way, if you think this is all you got, that's a problem. And that's why you're freaking out. My opinion is steal my idea. Awesome. Go for it. Why? Because that validates the fact that I got something and I got a lot more of that. Right?
Michael Jamin:
Right.
Phil Hudson:
But also, please don't steal my stuff.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, don't steal the stuff that's for me to do.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. Everything Jamin writes, I actually write, I'm his ghost writer. I've been a ghost writer for 26 years.
Michael Jamin:
Yep.
Phil Hudson:
I submitted a pilot, Nolan. See, I submitted a pilot to the Awesome Film Festival. Is this a good move? Is it bad timing with the strike I submitted before I knew there was going to be a strike.
Michael Jamin:
There's no bad timing. I mean, you're not going to take, if you become a hit at, if you win some prize, great. When the strike is over, you can capitalize on it. I don't think there's bad timing.
Phil Hudson:
No. I think there's specific advice on this from the W G A that I've seen, and it basically says that if you win anything that was done before the strike, it's whatever. But it's what you do with that after. So let's say that you submitted to a strike that was funded by a studio in the A M T P, and then you win. And part of that prize is to have a meeting with a producer that is in breach, because that is happening after the fact selling. Even having a meeting with them is a breach. It's crossing a picket line.
Michael Jamin:
So just to first say, Hey, thank you. I'm so excited. I can't wait to have this meeting with you in a month or two. When this R is over,
Phil Hudson:
You don't want to take that meeting to ruin your potential for a career because you can't get in the W G A and when the strike's over, they can only hire people who are in the W G A and they will not hire you because
Michael Jamin:
They won't give a crap about you. I mean, if you think you're going to build a friendship with them, they're going to be gone.
Phil Hudson:
Nope. They're going to make their payday and move on. And then when the Writers Guild qualified writers can come back, they will get their high quality scripts back from the people who write 'em. And you'll be sitting there just wasted opportunity with the Austin Film Festival. However, I believe it is technically, and I could be wrong, but I believe it's in, and I did submit this year, by the way, to everybody. I'm in the same situation. I'm not concerned if I win, awesome. I'm not planning on winning. It's just a benchmark, a litmus task for me to say, did I qualify? Am I good enough? Where am I at in what I consider to be a respected film festival? And you take what you get out of it, you accept the accolades, and then you move on and just avoid anything that crosses the picket line. Don't take this as an opportunity to scab.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. Cool. Four questions. Michael, you think we can do it?
Michael Jamin:
Let's blow through. Let's do it.
Phil Hudson:
Shauna Ibarra, miscellaneous. How do you find mentors or people who can give you feedback?
Michael Jamin:
You got to earn it. You got to earn it. You got to get a job or an internship or something at a studio, at a production company and work your butt off. And then after six months say, Hey, can I show you my script? But it's not like mentors are just lining up to help you. Or maybe they are. Maybe they're retired people, I don't know. But that's the connections part. That's the work you have to do. This is your job is to make connections, and it's to give first. And that's what I would do.
Phil Hudson:
I was given advice from a production supervisor and a producer that at a certain point you get an ask and you should take your ask
Michael Jamin:
That time. You have to earn that ask first. Right?
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. And there are many people I've personally worked with in Hollywood where I probably have that ask, and I'm not taking that ask because I don't want to waste their time.
Michael Jamin:
You're saving it
Phil Hudson:
For when it's time. Yeah. Erica little since screenwriting is not audience facing, like acting. Is it an ageist industry? Since it is generally Hollywood based.
Michael Jamin:
Ageism is the last accepted in Hollywood that said, there are plenty of examples of people who are older who are still breaking in. So it's not like it's impossible, but they're still favoring the youth. But it's not impossible, especially if you do it yourself. I am always yelling at you, do it yourself so no one can stop you as you're older, you have wisdom, you have more life experiences to draw upon, and you might have a couple of bucks in your pocket so you can invest in yourself.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, good point. Aaron Kami, what is your advice on how to make writing and screenwriting a less lonely pursuit? Especially when writing is a hobby. How do I meet and learn from others or get feedback, et cetera?
Michael Jamin:
Well, that's kind of one of the pluses of our course that Phil and I have is that there's a private Facebook group just for students. And it's a community. They trade scripts, they have table reads, they have a contest coming up. That's the community. That's their graduating class. That's their cohort. That's one way to do it.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. Any other thoughts? Are you
Michael Jamin:
No, it's like I said, I think, I don't remember if we mentioned this or the last podcast, but it's a really good group of people where it's not, yeah,
Phil Hudson:
I was on top of this one.
Michael Jamin:
Oh, okay. So I've already mentioned it. So yeah, it's really high quality people in this group,
Phil Hudson:
Solid feedback. And even playing field, they're telling you things based off of what matters, not things that they've heard or read in a book. It's like, this is how a writer's room is going to give you notes. Here's a document, here's a workbook. Michael prepared with the types of notes that matter. That's the feedback he get.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
Okay. Last question, Scott. Koski wants to know, Michael, would you consider your book art or Craft?
Michael Jamin:
Oh, good question. When I'm writing for tv, I consider that craft. I consider it. I know it is. I'm getting notes. I'm getting feedback. It's very collaborative. I don't think art at its core, and this is open for debate, but I think art, its core is not about compromising. And when you work with a bunch of people or when you're collaborating, you are going to compromise it. Compromises have to be made. And so it's everyone's work. And that's why I feel like it's craft. But I was thinking about this last night, and then I was like, well, what about Michelangelo? Sistine Chapel? He took notes on the Sistine Chapel. He was working for the Pope. He had to put some angels in there that he didn't want to put in. He had to compromise his vision. But you certainly wouldn't say the Sistine Chapel is not art.
It certainly is. So I'm a little confused as to what my definition is. Even I'm other words, I, I'm contradicting myself. I do think art is about taking something inside of you and expressing it in a way that helps you understand yourself and helps you understand the world around you. And in that way, people can see it or watch it and enjoy it, and help them understand themselves. I think there's that greater good. I don't think craft necessarily does that. I think craft can sometimes be, the studio will give me a note and I'll say, okay, I can do that. That's what you want. I can do that. I don't think it's necessarily playing for the greater good. It's what they want and they're paying me. I also don't think design is necessarily art design. Sometimes a can be about selling something. So the design of the Apple boxes that they sell their phones and really beautiful, well done. But the design has an intention, and that is to sell this image of apple, of this blank slate, this pure white open for possibility, creative, blank slate. So is that art? No, I don't think so. I think it's design. I also, so there's art, craft, and design, but you can have your own opinion, feelings. And this debate has been raging for centuries.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. I apologize. You might've answered this for you. Your book, is it art or is it craft? Oh,
Michael Jamin:
For me, the intention was only art. I was drawing upon my craft to make art. Whereas I don't usually draw upon my craft to make art. I usually do it to make a TV show. And so the book is called a Paper Orchestra. And when I wrote it, I was very, very, I was struggling with this. I've read similar books that were written by television writers. And to me, they felt like they had, I could tell they were written by sitcom writers. That's not to say that it was goofy. It just felt like it wasn't deep enough and it felt like they had taken the network note. Often we get notes from the network with the networks, can you round the edges off? And when you're writing on a network TV show, we'll often anticipate these notes and we'll do the notes in advance. But for this book, I was very insecure about it. I was kept on arguing with my wife, does this feel like it was written by Sid Car Rider? And sometimes she'd say, yeah, and sometimes she'd say, no, no, no. And so I was always pushing myself. I wanted to be seen as an author, not as a sitcom writer who wrote a book that feels like a sitcom. And so whether or not I achieved that, that's up for the individual to decide. But that was my intention. And I think intention's important. Think it counts for something.
Phil Hudson:
Absolutely. And it sounds to me like you took the craft that you've been working on for years and years and utilize it as a litmus test for your art.
Michael Jamin:
And if anyone wants to sign up when it drops or when I start touring, it's michael jamin.com/upcoming. But it's interesting because when people have enjoyed it and performed it as I performed, or when they've read,
Phil Hudson:
It's fantastic.
Michael Jamin:
Thank you. It's very visual. So I think when I write these scenes, I think, oh, what are we watching in our mind's eye as this scene goes? So there's that. I do write as if I'm a screenwriter. I don't know if I'll ever be able to get rid of that. And I do write, it's not high literature. I understand that. I don't know if I ever could write high literature, and I don't think, it was never my intention.
Phil Hudson:
I think it just speaks to the value of art. And you said it's to the greater good. And I think sometimes the greater good is what do I want to write? What is best for my soul?
Michael Jamin:
Yes.
Phil Hudson:
That's the intention. And that is the greater good. And that's the difference between canon fodder is the term that comes to mind. I don't know if that's appropriate, but it's just the BSS that can be mass produced, the AI generated content that can be mass produced versus the singular thing that only Michael Jamin could do because it spoke to his soul and came out of him based off of what he needed to express at this moment and what was going on in his life, reflecting on all of the experiences he's had.
Michael Jamin:
And that's interesting because how I protect myself from ai, because people say, what are you doing about ai? AI cannot write my stories because it hasn't lived my life. And these are very personal stories, so it just can't, AI might be able to do other things, but it can't do what I'm doing. Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
Yep. Beautiful stuff, man. I love when we end on these great little notes like that because I think it's incredibly valuable to people who are struggling with this. I know a lot of writers think they're artists and they want to be artists, and you are. You're doing something pure. And with the right intention, regardless of the quality that you can do now compared to everybody else, it's the best you can do with what you have right now. That is
Michael Jamin:
Art. And that's the advantage that an amateur or non-professional screenwriter or writer has over what we do. I'm a professional writer. It means I get paid. People are paying me to put out stuff that maybe I don't necessarily want to do, but I'm taking the money so I have to do it. But when you're writing for yourself as an amateur or you get to write whatever you want and you don't have to compromise and you don't have to worry about the money, you already have a job on the side, what you're doing, not you, but what those people are doing is more pure in that sense. You are writing because you just want to write, it's closer. It probably has a closer chance of being art than what I do when I take the paycheck.
Phil Hudson:
But it's probably also the thing that is going to get you into the machine to become the professional paid writer who does the craft?
Michael Jamin:
If you don't, right? If you stop thinking about, can I sell this and start thinking about how beautiful is this thing I'm making? And we were just talking to him a minute ago about Wolf of Wall Street, how I'm only a quarter way through, but every scene is so interesting. The writing is so great in every scene. Not lazy, nothing lazy about it, man. Yeah,
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. Well, it kind of leads to the end of the podcast. And so before we jump the gun, what do we say? Keep writing. That's Keep writing Do
Michael Jamin:
Phil. Great. Another great talk. Alright, everyone, keep watching. We have great stuff for you on the website. We like to always like to plug that. If you go to michaeljamin.com, what you can get is a free lesson on how to write. You can get on my newsletter, which I'll send you the three tips that I think you need to watch every week. Three lessons for you to pick up free. Also on my website, you can sign up for my book for when it drops a P Orchestra. You can sign up for my webinar, which we do every three weeks, and you could sign up for my screenwriting course. That's going to cost you. You can get a free writing sample that I've written all this stuff. Go get it. Yeah, it's all there@michaeljamon.com
Phil Hudson:
And there's other valuable things you have on there too. You can get the webinar rebroadcast. This was the pep talking screener writer and he's here. You can go get that. There's also the VIP Q and a, so these are the questions we couldn't answer in the main one. There's a VIP q and a. You can go sign up @michaeljamin.com/VIP for the next event and just have a chance on Zoom in a small group to ask questions directly to you. And
Michael Jamin:
Let me clarify so the webinars, because I'm glad you brought that up. So the webinars are free if you attend live, they're free. If you miss it, we send you a free replay for 24 hours. But if you want to catch the old ones because you're like, Hey, those are really good, those are available on my website for a small fee,
Phil Hudson:
But they're lifetime access, so you buy it once. It doesn't have a take clock. It's like jurors, you have access. It's in there with the course. If you buy the course, you get access to all of them and the webinar, when you attend, you give away a free access to the course. So somebody will win that. And a pretty nice discount as well.
Michael Jamin:
Yes. Alright, Philly, we did it. Thank you everyone. Until next week, as Phil likes to say, keep writing.
Phil Hudson:
This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear this with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar @michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJamin,writer. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Green Music, by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.
On this week's episode, I talk about my thoughts on going to Film School. We also talk about what some industry insiders think about this and whether or not it helps your career. Tune in for much more!
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Michael Jamin:
Because I don't want to make it harder for my, when I'm working in a writer's room, I don't want to make it harder for myself. I want to make it simple for me to think about these problems. So I don't want to make it harder. The job is hard enough as it is. Why make it harder? Make it simpler. You're telling a story, it's not heart surgery. You're listening to screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jamin. Hey everybody, welcome back. I'm Michael Jamin. I'm here with Phil Hudson and today we're answering the question, or at least we're asking it. Who knows if we'll have an answer? Should I go to film school? I get this one a lot. Let's talk about it. Well first of all, Phil, you might be better than me answering because you actually went to film school. Where'd you go?
Phil Hudson:
I went to Santa Fe University of Art and Design and I got a bachelor's, a fine arts in film story development from a film school
Michael Jamin:
There. How many years is that degree?
Phil Hudson:
It's a four year degree. Took me, oh my
Michael Jamin:
God,
Phil Hudson:
It's a bachelor's program. So it wasn't like master's an n, NYU U Master's in film. It was a bachelor's degree. And I remember when I was contemplating going, I had just really met you. I'd been working with your wife for a while and I asked you, should I go there or should I go to Hollywood? And you said, well, I don't know how valuable film school is outside of the network. You'll build there, but the work's here, so that's a personal choice. And then you said, well, at least you'll be able to teach college. And I said, well, I don't know if I will because it won't have a master's. And you're like, oh no.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Well how much did that degree cost? Not necessarily you, but most people.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, so the school was $30,000 a year, so it's $120,000 to get a four year degree. And I think at the time the average student would take about five years to get a bachelor's degree. So it actually, it would be $150,000 for
Michael Jamin:
That degree. I just Googled U S C film school and it's 53,000 a year. And I dunno if it's two or three years, but either way it's enough to give you heart palpitations.
Phil Hudson:
To put this into perspective, my brother, he's a lawyer, went to law school in Idaho and he's a lawyer in Montana where he passed the bar and I think his degree cost him $120,000 to be a lawyer.
Michael Jamin:
To be a lawyer. And you can immediately start earning that back the minute you passed the
Phil Hudson:
Bar. Oh, he's making more money per hour than I am now. He went, I mean he really took his time and now he was scraping by living on student loans, building up debt to get through film school with a family. I mean he's building five to six billable hours per day at $200 an hour. He is making more in a day than I make as a PA
Michael Jamin:
On. Yeah, right. But film school, so should people go to film school? Here's the thing, you're going to graduate with a lot of debt and we don't know when or if you'll ever pay that off. As far as I can tell.
Phil Hudson:
I can be transparent on that too. I had a Robert Redford scholarship and a talent scholarship, so my cost all in, aside from what I paid, I have $40,000 in student loans from school and my school closed down. It doesn't exist anymore.
Michael Jamin:
So do you have to pay back your loan then? I
Phil Hudson:
Do.
Michael Jamin:
You do. Even though, who's it going to? They don't have school.
Phil Hudson:
The federal government loaned me the money and then paid the school. And that is something I can never get rid of. It's you can't file bankruptcy on it. It lives with you till death. You will always owe that money unless you pay it back. The other side of this is there is a way that I could challenge that and say, well, my school's gone because the school actually never sent me my diploma. So I walked, I have the itinerary, the photos, the whole thing, but I never got my diploma from the school. And there's a process to go get it through the parent organization laureate to go get that, but it's a bit of a pain in the butt. And they messed up my transcripts because I did that four year program in two and a half years. So I really expedited things. I saw them writing on the wall that it was going to shut down so I could challenge it and I could get that waived and then I would lose my degree. So I've wasted two and a half years, so it's not really worth fighting to me. I'd rather have the degree. So I've just got to find the time to go fight that other battle for you.
Michael Jamin:
Well, just so people know, I've worked in TV for a long time, 27 years, and most of the writers that I work, if you want to be a screenwriter, very, very few actually went to film school. I was at a party a couple weeks ago, a friend of mine who told me he went to film school and I've worked with him for many years. He's like, you went to film school. It just doesn't come up. And when you get hired for, no one's going to ask you to see your degree. No one caress what your G p A was in film school. No one caress if you went or you didn't go. All they care is can you put the words in the page? That comp compelled people to turn to the next page. And you don't need just the fact that you have a degree or even an M F A in creative writing or whatever. The degree is worthless. The knowledge that you gain might be worth something might depending on who's teaching it to you. And I think that is more dependent on not necessarily the school or the program, but who's teaching that semester, who did they get? Often these are adjuncts and sometimes the adjuncts are working screenwriters who have a break in their schedule and want to teach. And you may find one that's great, but these adjuncts don't get paid a lot of money. So it's not what I mean a lot of money. I'm talking about
Phil Hudson:
A couple hundred bucks a month.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, I mean the people I've talked to for a semester, maybe they make $4,000. It's not a lot of money, so they're not doing it for the money. And it's not a long-term career option when you're only making four grand for a semester. It's ridiculous. So it just depends on who they got that semester. You may get somebody great, you may not. So the knowledge you get may be fantastic, but again, it's a trade school you're getting, if you want to be a filmmaker, do you want to learn editing? Do you want to learn lighting or maybe, but as a screenwriter, no, you'll learn that in a million other things. There are way less expensive options, including our course that we offer that will teach you probably more in that area of specialty in the writing aspect. But I don't teach lighting
Phil Hudson:
And I decided to go because I was always a bit more interested in being an ourour, shooting, writing, directing, producing, editing, just kind of understanding the full gamut. I also have a bit of a control need. I need to be able to understand, and this comes from being in the tech space where I'd have engineers telling me something was going to take three weeks to get done, and then you learn how to code it and you realize they're just milking the clock. And so it comes from I'd like to understand the full process so I can better work within that process and hold people a little bit more accountable from a leadership perspective. But yeah, that's smart. Smart. And your note on film school is interesting too. On the writing side, no one cares on the production side. I've actually had conversations with people who roll their eyes when they hear you into film school.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, really? People, producers, you mean
Phil Hudson:
Art directors?
Michael Jamin:
Why did
Phil Hudson:
They roll their every department?
Michael Jamin:
Why did they roll their eyes?
Phil Hudson:
I dealt with this when I was a missionary. When you're a missionary, you've been out doing this stuff for six months and then you're asked to train somebody new. That guy's coming from a place where they taught them how to be a missionary, but learning how to be a missionary versus being a missionary, just different things. Learning how to make a film and learning how to do a setup versus how a set actually runs. They're different things. The education may be correct, but the environment changes things. And so without fail, people who come in who said, I went to film school, think they know how to do it, think they know better than their superiors and it creates conflict because those people think they're better than the people teaching them.
Michael Jamin:
Phil, we didn't have this conversation off the air. So just so you know, I worked with a producer on one of my TV shows, the line producer, he was the producer and he said the same exact thing. He said that when he hires PAs for the show and most of the PAs come out of film school, whatever, a hundred thousand in debt, he goes, I have to untrain them. I have to unlearn them everything they learned because they think they know and it's just not how it works. And I was like, really? He goes, yep, that's how he goes. He doesn't prioritize hiring film students. He just as well hired someone who's not a film school student, have them learn on the job and learn instead of being winding up a hundred thousand in debt, they get paid. Although not a lot, but they get paid to learn.
Phil Hudson:
No, you get paid. I always described it, and I need this too, because when I moved to LA I was 31 and I'd already had a very successful corporate career and I could have pursued that career. When I was in college, I got prospected to go be a chief marketing officer at a bunch of startups in San Francisco paying way more money than I make now. And I turned 'em down because I was way more passionate about this thing I want to do in film. But I always described it to people like I knew, I knew I was going to get coffee for people. I knew it was a lot of yes sir, no, yes sir, no ma'am. However much you need, what can I do? Because it really feels to me like it's the apprenticeship model out here. This is a trade where you learn under someone else who has done it and you not only learn how to do it by the book, but you learn all the tips and tricks and hacks. They had to figure out that were passed down to them as a lineage from the people that taught them who learned it from the guy who was running around with the horses in 1908.
Michael Jamin:
So another thing that you might get from film school. So in other words, let's break it down. Okay, the diploma is not worth anything, but the knowledge you might get, especially in terms of screenwriting, might be valuable. Just totally depends, but you can spend a lot less on it. You might get context depending on where you go, depending on your graduating class. And if you are willing to stay in contact, if you stay in contact with your people, if you're friends with them, if you're not, those contacts are worth, your graduating class is worthless if you don't know the members of your graduating class. And like I said, it's an expensive venture and it didn't help you get, okay. So when you got your first PA job, did they ask if you went to film school?
Phil Hudson:
No, I think in fact when I interviewed it was probably one of those situations where I was disqualified because of it. Oh, really? Because in the interview it was for Brett and link's buddy system. You got me the interview, you told me I can get you the interview, I can't get you the job. You got her on the job. And I showed up and I disqualified myself by telling them I wanted to be a writer. That's really what disqualified me. And then, yeah, no one has asked me once, not a single person has ever asked me if I went to film school.
Michael Jamin:
And so I had to
Phil Hudson:
Bring it up once or twice out of defense because someone was trying to belittle. This is like I ran into a really toxic person in her season of Tacoma Tea recently, and that person was belittling me by trying to explain to me things and I had to say, yeah, I learned that in film school. And then she looked at me and was like, yeah, I went to film school too. I understand. I know how to calculate it. I get it.
Michael Jamin:
But there are things in terms of screenwriting that you did not learn in film school.
Phil Hudson:
Oh man. And this is no knock on anybody. You talk about good professors and bad professors. We had an adjunct professor named Ed Kamara, and he's a legend. He wrote Lady Hawk, which was a huge hit in the eighties. He wrote the Bruce Lee movie. He has actual credits under his belt, retired lives in Santa Fe, and he would come and teach one class per year. And it was intermediate storytelling and I got way more out of that class than I did any of my other writing classes because he was telling you, here's how you write a screenplay. And we had to write a screenplay to get credit in the class. But compare that to my first class and nothing against the professor, but we spent four weeks learning audio visual format for PSAs, and then we learned how to use Celtics because he wrote the book on Celtics and we had to buy the book on Celtics for his course.
It was a lot of stuff. And then I had this really interesting moment we've talked about in the podcast, but this is a real thing that happened to me. He asked the room, we finally got into story and structure. He asked the room, what's the definition of a story? And I just perked up and I was like, I know this because it's literally the first thing you had taught me via an email. He asked me that question and I looked around the room and people raising their hands and people are getting it wrong. And I just said, it's a hero overcoming an obstacle to achieve a goal. And the teacher turned around and changed his slides because he didn't have that definition. So yeah, I've learned way more, I would say outside of film school, about screenwriting through you and the stuff you've taught me also from just sitting down and writing, the real benefit for me was that it forced me to write,
Michael Jamin:
But also you can build and if you want to talk about your graduating class since I brought it up, but you can build your community outside of, you don't need to go to film school to build a community of people, of like-minded people who want what you want, which is to become either filmmakers or screenwriter, whatever it is. But it's like you can build a community, especially online because you don't need to do that now. So much about the world has changed with the internet and social media so much. It's changed so rapidly that, but I think so many people are still stuck in the old model thinking, well no, this is how it has to be done, myself included as well. I sometimes feel that when it doesn't, the world is changing.
Phil Hudson:
We can talk about generative AI and all of those things because pretty steeped in those. I sent you a bunch of guides yesterday about how to do some content on chat G P T and stuff, but tool, like you said, technology has just changed things. MySpace was a thing when I was in high school and Facebook was brand new when I got off my mission in 2008, and I barely, I had to figure out how to use that, but YouTube wasn't a thing. I remember sitting in my first class in film school and one of the assignments was, I want you to write down on a piece of paper, who is the filmmaker that inspired you to be a filmmaker when you were like 12 years old? And then he said, if you were inspired by a YouTuber, come talk to me. I have a different assignment for you. And I was like, what? YouTube was invented in 2005. I graduated in oh four, right? It's just text change things. So I agree with you on that. But in terms of your network and growing a network, my network in my film school, I went to school with a bunch of really passionate people about film, are way more technically savvy than I am. Could make a picture out of a camera I can't even imagine because they just had access to better technology than I did. They were much younger than me,
Michael Jamin:
But
Phil Hudson:
I've found most of 'em didn't understand story at all. And the ones who did, there's a small group of us who made it to la. Out of that group of people, there's like four of them still here. One is working at an agency, one is in the W G A and writes on Selena. She's amazing. You should go check out Selena Blank on her names Alexandra, but it'll come up to me. And then there's one guy who was an announcer, really put in a lot of effort making these happen. And now he's a head of creative development at a pretty well-known studio. That's it. That's really it. I've got a couple of friends who still live in la, but they're not doing anything in the industry writing related. They're doing the visual effects and things, but they all want to be writers, directors. That's what they did. But the group that I think I associate the most with is actually your group from the course.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. You associate meaning making connections with
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean prior to that, obviously I know people on set. I need people on set. We trade scripts. We kind of have those things because working with people and then you learn, everybody wants to be a writer. Everybody wants to be a director. Not everybody. There are some people who are like, I love lighting and I love camera and that's what I want to do. But a lot of people want to be writers and directors. And so you can meet a lot of like-minded people that way. They're the events and things in LA that you can go to networking events. There's social media meetups now there's Zoom meetups with people. But your group, I want to highlight because the value of that group to me is these are people who've invested in themselves to learn from a professional who knows how to do it.
And we are all sitting down in this group, and it's a group of people who are highly motivated. They're taking it very seriously. They understand the fundamentals the same way that we all do. And then now we're slowly lifting each other up to become better. And there's new people joining every month, and those people are jumping into this ecosystem, but very proactive. We trade notes with those people. The notes are way better. I mean, those are my peers. One comes into town and we meet up, we go pick it with him and Warner Brothers, he comes to my house, he eats food in my home. That's Dave Crossman we talk about all the time. But lots of people in the LA area that we meet up with and do those things. That's the networking that really matters.
Michael Jamin:
So just to be clear, I have a screenwriting course and that comes with a private Facebook group. That's what you're talking about. And what I see, it's interesting. I am a member of some public Facebook groups screenwriting, and I don't go there. I don't know why I'm in there, but I don't go there. They're dark, they're dark places. People are mean, they talk shit. They don't know what they're talking about. It is just toxic. But that's definitely not the sense in our group, which is very much more supportive, not, and not only that, we haven't even talked about this film, but someone, I think it was Crossman in the group, decided to, Hey, should we do a film, a screenwriting contest? Film
Phil Hudson:
Festival. A film
Michael Jamin:
Festival? And so I was like, that's fun. That's a good idea.
Phil Hudson:
You told them to do it on a podcast. You said, you were talking about on the podcast you said, and not crossword, but you said, you know what I think our group needs to do? They need to just do a thing where they can exhibit the stuff they're working on and then someone did it,
Michael Jamin:
Someone took the initiative to do it, and I'm all for it. I'm not involved in it, but I'm all for it. I'm like, that's a great idea. And it just helps. First of all, it raises everyone's profile in the group with other, amongst themselves, but also that'll spread. I mean, they do this and one of these things does well, if everyone agree on, Hey, this movie's really good, or the screenplays, I don't even know, is it a movie or is it a screenplay? It's
Phil Hudson:
Short. It's produced stuff. So it's taking your content and then producing it as a short,
Michael Jamin:
Right?
Phil Hudson:
So Imagine Festival,
Michael Jamin:
Imagine the top three entrants. Everyone agrees, these are the three favorite that will have legs that people will talk about that they'll share that outside of the group. They'll say, I mean, I don't see a downside to this. All I see is upside. And I was, I was actually thinking about what stopped them from doing this two years ago. And the answer, and I came up with the answer and the answer was, one, someone felt like, well, this is a lot of work, which I get it. It's not a lot, but it's work to organize this. And then the second was probably, they're probably thinking, well, who am I to do this? Who am I to be the person? What am I? I'm just a person. Why should am I to say I'm capable? Well, why are you not capable? Who are you not to be the person you're just as good as anybody else? What's the problem? But it's overcoming that little mental barrier that you created for yourself thinking, who am I to make a film a contest? Well, you're you. That's who you are now. You're the guy, now you're the guy, the woman creating this contest and raising your profile in the process, which is only a good thing. So it's only good for the winners or the contestants. It's good for the people who are involved in doing this.
Phil Hudson:
And we've talked about it too, the proactiveness in that group of people, they have reading groups and that's booked out for six months where they know for every week who's reading these scripts. They're exchanging notes. They do pitch fest. They bring in people outside of the group, professionals that they know. They shared their network with you to hear you pitch things. Right? Wow. Yeah. It's nothing but
Michael Jamin:
Good for them. I mean, seriously, I'm not organizing this. They're being proactive, which is what I encourage you to do. Control put, this is your destiny. This is your fate. You got to make these opportunities for yourself. And it's only good, good things to be the person, even if you're just a connector, even if you're just the person that links two people together, now you are the connector. You're also valuable. So
Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.
Phil Hudson:
No, this is the value of leadership. It's just leadership
Michael Jamin:
Is what I was even asking too. Are you getting involved in that? Is that what you
Phil Hudson:
I'm going to, they don't know this. They'll listen to this. I don't know. But yeah, I've got this final that I did in film school. Every project I've ever done, the audio has just been trashed. It's just been correct. And the problem this time was my cinematographer didn't enable the on-camera audio. And so I did have a good audio person getting the audio, so I just was able to scrape it enough to get an A on my final and get out. But I never finished the project. So that's a project that's sitting there. My friend Ken Joseph, who does the music for your podcast, he's going to do the music on as well. And I'm just going to finally cut it and submit it. And then I'm probably going to put something together with a couple of people from the Tacoma crew who aren't working right now and try to just get something shot and submit it just for fun.
Michael Jamin:
See, and this gets you off your ass, just lets a fire under your ass to do. But I bet you the, I
Phil Hudson:
Can't not show up Michael. Not that I have any clout, but it's like I'm number two in the group just because of my tech admin status. And so if I don't show up, what message is that sending to people? And so I take that on myself as my responsibility for helping be involved and support the troubleshooting that goes on. Okay, I need to be an active
Michael Jamin:
Participant. How many winners are they going to choose?
Phil Hudson:
I have no clue on that.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Well, I look forward to watching the winners. I'm not going to judge, but I will be. I'll enjoy the victors. I'll enjoy their work. And I mean, again, that's just people taking initiative of their own careers. That's what you're supposed to do.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. I mean, this is what you've been preaching for two years, man. You've been saying this. It's like no one's going to help you. You got to do it yourself. I think this is just a lost American skillset. That is a very important one.
Michael Jamin:
This is not film school. They don't have to go to film school to do all this. No, this is where the conversation started.
Phil Hudson:
And on that note, it's like, do you have to go to film school? Absolutely not. My answer is no. Am I glad I went to film school? I don't know that I would be in the same place today if I hadn't. I think that I had to go through a lot of that stuff. Are there benefits to going to school and getting a degree in general? I think so. I think as someone who grew up poor and I just had this chip on my shoulder all the time, that I was less than. So going and getting a classic education from a liberal arts school, having my eyes opened a little bit more by being encouraged to read stuff I would've never read on my own. I took classes on feminist literature because that was the course that fit into my schedule to check that box.
And I took the look through it, history of science fiction. Wow, learned so much about this genre that I love and saw the influence of that. So there's a lot of those benefits I think from a personal development perspective. But I'm also an autodidact. I mean, I've got shells full of books that I can just read and learn on my own, and I believe anybody can do that. So it's each their own. And with kids, my wife is not a believer in college and secondary education doesn't really care because it's not something that ever called out to her. I definitely see the value. And so our decision is it's up to our kids to decide and we'll support whatever they want to do. But I also know I've built a very healthy marketing career on my own that did not go to school for,
Michael Jamin:
The thing is to graduate though with a hundred hundred or $150,000 in debt,
Phil Hudson:
It's insurmountable for a lot of people, especially, and I think this is what the strike highlights is, people in Hollywood have this opinion that riders are just driving Lamborghinis and they're loaded. And the answer is no. They're middle class people. They just live in a city that requires more money to live in, but they live a middle class lifestyle that would be the equivalent of a upper middle class lifestyle. In any other suburban area of America doing any other middle class job, there are outliers. It's a bell curve. There are people who make way less. There are a lot of people who make a lot more, but the average in the bell, they're just middle class people and they're in my neighborhood. I mean, I just moved into this new neighborhood a year ago, and in my neighborhood, I go to this church and there are four people in the industry in the church. One's an editor at Sony, one was the head gaffer for N C I S, and he's retired now. And the other one's a composer for film and tv, but they live in what I would call an upper middle class neighborhood. They're not in the Hollywood Hills. I'm further away from LA than I've ever been. This is where I could afford to put my family.
Michael Jamin:
Right. So it's just a little hard to think about having that amount of debt is
Phil Hudson:
When you can go to school for six, seven years and then start making 1200 bucks a day as an attorney.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. So do you really want to add that for the same debt?
Phil Hudson:
The same debt? So it's crazy.
Michael Jamin:
So it's probably just a better way to spend your money and your time probably. I would think. And again, I didn't go to film school. One of the best writers I've ever worked with didn't go to college. She was just a high school graduate. So it's a question of can you put the words on the page? The degree will not open doors for you. No.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. And that ties into limiting belief, people talking all the time is you have to go to Harvard to make it in Hollywood. Yeah. It's like, no, there are recruiting groups. There are kind of cliquey things that can happen for sure. And this is, I don't know, so I apologize if this is incorrect, but I've heard that the Simpsons largely hires people from Harvard,
Michael Jamin:
And that was really, that news is 30 years old, so I don't even know if they're hiring anymore. The Simpsons is not what it once was. And people aren't leaving that show. If you're a writer on that show, you're not leaving because why would you? So I don't know how many writers they hire, and I don't know if I know it once was a feeder. You go to the Lampoon. If you did the Harvard Lampoon, then maybe you get some contact.
Phil Hudson:
But that's a qualification, right? You to work at the Lampoon, you are qualified because you have to have a certain joke set, a style of jokes. So I mean, that just makes sense to me. I know there's a big U Ss C producing, I wouldn't call it click but network. If you went to the producing school at U S C, that has value to people in the producing side. They know the quality of the education that you had.
But I mean, that's alumni networks and that's been around for forever. No different. The difference here is I know that if I need to find a job tomorrow, so let's say the strikes end tomorrow and Tacoma FD is canceled, which is not, but if it did, what's my next step? My step is to send out emails to everybody I know that I've worked with in the four years I've been on Tacoma fd, letting 'em know this is the kind of job I'm looking for. Lemme know if you hear anything. And I know that my work ethic will shine that if there's an opportunity, they'll ask me. They'll recommend me that,
Michael Jamin:
Right?
Phil Hudson:
That's the same network. I got that working.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, yeah, right. You built that yourself really. So, and another thing you can do if you decide to take a course or a class, and I've talked about this before, so apologize for repeating myself, but whoever your teacher is, it says if it's screenwriting, ask to read their work. It's okay. That's okay. And you could say, I'd love to, before you sign up, I'd love to read what your work is. And then they'll give you a script. If they're not willing to share their work, what's the problem? It's a red flag. If you read it and you're not sure whether you like where you think it's good or not, there's a simple test. When you turn to page one and you get to the bottom of page one, do you want to turn to page two? It's the bottom of every page. Do you want to turn the page and find out what happens next?
If you're on the fence, it's not good enough. It really should be captivating. You should want to, it's entertainment. If it's not entertaining you, that's how you judge. There's no secret language to figure out whether, and I didn't know this when I first broke into Hollywood, I didn't know this. I would read a script and I go, it looks like a script. I don't know. Or I was doing coverage for a publisher. Would this book make a good movie? So I was reading a lot of books and they'd say, do you think it'll make a good movie? I'm like, I guess I remember reading, taking months to read or whatever weeks to read a book and thinking, this is dreadful. I guess this, it's a good movie. No, it is actually less simpler. It shouldn't feel like torture, turning the page.
Phil Hudson:
And that's a real thing. And we're having read so much stuff now pretty quick.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah,
Phil Hudson:
It's going to suck.
Michael Jamin:
So ask to read their work, and if you don't like it, then don't study from them. They're not going to. It's really as simple as that. And if you do like it, great. Maybe you'll study from still. Doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be a great teacher. Sometimes they can't crystallize it. They just might have some raw talent that they can't really, it doesn't mean they're good at sharing their knowledge means they have some kind of thing in them that, so there's that.
Phil Hudson:
Well, and let me pay you a compliment too, Michael, because we've had a lot of people go through your course and one of the common testimonials we get or reviews we get is just how easily digestible it is and how packed with value it is. And I remember we've had two people in particular. One Bruce Gordon left you this great review. He said that, and I'm paraphrasing, but he said that learning the whole course, the learning process is so easy to get through that it's impossible to not get value out of the backend. And we had someone who recently signed up within the last month who is literally, this is her job is learning systems, online learning management, and she wanted to know what platform we were using because she was so impressed with it. And I was like, it's the most popular platform. Everyone uses platform. It's not that. It's the fact that you're teaching valuable stuff, organized in a way that makes linear and logical sense that anybody can grasp.
Michael Jamin:
There's no secret from it is just like I try to explain it in very simple terms so an idiot can get it. I'm not interested in, oh,
Phil Hudson:
And I'm an idiot. You've said things that I've heard a thousand times over in books and courses. And it wasn't until you said it was like, oh no, duh.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, because I don't want to make it harder for my, when I'm working in a writer's room, I don't want to make it harder for myself. I want to make it simple for me to think about these problems. So I don't want to make it harder. The job is hard enough as it is. Why make it harder? Make it simpler. You're telling a story. It's not heart surgery don't make so complicated.
Phil Hudson:
And you're structured in the course that you talk about your bottom of act one. The way you define that. Oh my gosh, that just made so much sense. The first half of Act two. Oh my gosh. Makes so much sense. And I remember I was lucky enough, I came out to Disneyland with my family and I swung by your garage to talk about marketing stuff for your wife's company. And we were just hanging out where you were recording. And I remember sitting there and you were like, well, what can I do for you? And I was like, oh, I don't know, man. I'd just love to know what you think about story. And you broke the whiteboard out for me the same way you do in the course. And I was in film school at the time, and the way you laid it out, just I wanted to cry. It was like, this is so
Michael Jamin:
Easy. Yeah, see, it's easy. We don't make things harder. My partner and I, we try not to make things harder than it has to be. And that's not to say it's formulaic or facile, it's just like, because you could tell a complicated, nuanced story, but you don't have to make the beats of it complicated. You don't have to. Geez, because we got to do this every week.
Phil Hudson:
I was watching Get Out on the plane, I'd never seen Get Out. I've bought it. I wanted to watch it. I just never made the time. And I watched it on the plane yesterday and this thing happens. I was like, I know where we're at. And I checked the time. Oh, we're there. Oh, beat by beat by beat.
Michael Jamin:
It fell right
Phil Hudson:
Into it. Of the greatest films of the last five, six years. Beat by Beat by beat. It's the same story structure we use in Tacoma fd we use in King of the Hill, wherever it is. It's the same thing.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, same thing. The way
Phil Hudson:
Jordan Peele does it, I could never do cause surprised, fascinating, great, that's him. But it's the same structure,
Michael Jamin:
Right? The structure is the same, right? So that's where you put the structure is just like that's building a house. Okay. If you know how to frame a house, you should be able to frame the house and then the color of the paint and the tiles, all that stuff is that's the decorations. And that requires your taste and how you want to execute it. That's fine. But don't make the structure the hard part.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. Structures are not hard. You have a foundation and you have stuff. That's it. Everything else, the way you put it in your electrical system, what type of water heater you use, the piping you use, how is it connected? The junction box, that's the complicated stuff. That's you, that's your craft. But the framing that, that's a process. So one thing I wanted to tell you is I was at dinner with Paul Soter when I was on the quasi tour, and we were talking about writing in the writer's room and TV and all of this stuff, and I told him this advice that you gave me, which was one, learn hotkeys. If you're going to be a writer's assistant and two, shut the F up. Your job is not to talk in the room. Your job is to sit there and take notes and listen and learn, and that's what you're going to do. And Paul Soder paid you and your writing partner or great credit, he said, yeah, I remember my first season in Tacoma. I just remember sitting there and wanting to shut up and say nothing and just learn from these guys. Oh, wow. Although they have great career in indie film and doing major studio films, they were still learning from you too because of us. I think it goes back to the simplicity with which you're doing it
Michael Jamin:
And those guys, they're movies. They made some really fun movies that people really love and they've made quite a few. They've made, I don't know how many, maybe probably less than 10 movies, but it's quite a few. But it's probably not more than 10, right? It's eight
Phil Hudson:
I want to say. But yeah.
Michael Jamin:
Okay. Let's say it's eight. And many of them have done really, really well. These low budget movies that have really made some money and they have a huge cult following, but they've only told whatever, eight or 10 stories. Whereas when you're in tv, when we started, we were doing 22 stories a season. And it's that repetition that you really is. That's where you really learn how to figure out what story structure is. And you do 22 episodes over my 27 year career, it's like, okay, it becomes a lot easier to know what a story is and how to break a story. Whereas in the beginning of my career, I was like sitting in a writer's room watching the other more senior writers break a story. It was like a magic trick. It's like, how do you know how to do any of this?
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, it's cool, man. So to answer the question, do you need to go to film school? My answer is no. And for most people, I would actually encourage you not to because you're going to get the debts, you're going to get the student loans, and none of it's going to help you progress in your career. Is there a chance it's going to help you with your craft and get better at your craft? Yeah, absolutely. I think a little bit of it's luck of the draw though. Like you said, it really depends on the teachers you get. Depends on how committed you are. Is it going to make you a better writer? No.
Michael Jamin:
Are there far less expensive ways to get the same amount of knowledge and connections? Yes, absolutely. It might require a little more work, but think about how much money you're saving.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, there's a doctor, a pretty renowned doctor now, Peter Atia. Have you heard of him?
Michael Jamin:
No.
Phil Hudson:
Dr. Peter Atia. He's in the health and fitness and lung. He's a longevity doctor. So he literally how to live Chris, he's a Chris Hemsworth doctor, and he
Michael Jamin:
From Harvard, this guy,
Phil Hudson:
I don't think it was Harvard, he was John Hopkins. He was a Al intern at John Hopkins. But anyway, he's a book just came out just a couple months ago. Really, really good book about longevity. And he had talked about this thing called Arian Olympics, which is how do I live to be 100 and still be able to get down on the ground and play with my kids and put something in the overhead compartment? All of the things that kill people, old people, they don't have that. But he was talking on a podcast about vaping and nicotine and all that stuff, and he's like, I don't have a problem with nicotine. The problem is the device and it's the tobacco. And this is, for me, I always view things in two types. It's risk and reward. And there's levels. There's a scale of risk and a scale of reward. And I think this applies directly to film school for people the risk, is it like getting hit by a tricycle or is it getting hit by a bus? And the reward is, am I step bending over to pick up a dollar? We're picking up gold coins
And there's an offset. If the risk to reward or matched, it might be worth pursuing If the risk to reward or misaligned, it's not. And my opinion here is it's the financial equivalent of getting hit by a bus to pick up dollars. Because you're going to go to la, be a pa, and you're going to make minimum wage for 4, 5, 6 years and you may never get out of that. I know people when the A M T P, excuse me, not the mtp, but the biopsy strike was going on, they were talking about how they never made it past writer's assistant because they'd get on a show and it would get canceled, and then they would get on a show as a writer's assistant and it'd get canceled six years down the road. They have it become a staff writer, even though they're knocking at the door because luck of the draw.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, there's luck there. Yeah, for sure. Alright, well there's your answer, Phil. How's that for? All right, well, before we wrap it up, let's tell people what more they can get. We have a lot of resources free. Forget about paying Phil the same. I got a film school here. It's free.
Phil Hudson:
Here's the big one, Michael, you talked about if you want to learn from somebody, read their stuff. Well, you give away your stuff. You had me put this on the site, so it's on your about page, there's a form. You fill it out, and then Michael will send you a bunch of actual written and produced episodes of TV show. It's like King of the Hill and a bunch of other stuff in there. But you can go read your produced writing and then go watch the show, which is, I think, a step beyond. It's like you can immerse, see what you did and see how it ended up end result, which is pretty cool. So michaeljamin.com. I want to say it's about, but you can just go to the main magazine, I think it's
Michael Jamin:
About.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, and you can go get it there. And that'll be sent directly to you. The free lesson, the same lesson you taught me, the one I talked about with my professor. You can get that lesson in a longer format with more detail, with more entertaining. And that's michaeljamin.com/free. It's how to Tell a story. You've got a paper orchestra stuff, webinar, which we going to talk about. Yeah, webinar. Webinar. Every three weeks. Now we're doing a webinar. It's about three absolutely free
Michael Jamin:
Webinar.
Phil Hudson:
Come join Michael for an hour, get your questions answered. We've been doing this private v i p thing where you just do q and a with people for about an hour or so after. And the results coming out of that. People love that. They're big fans
Michael Jamin:
Of that one that is not free. There's a small fee for that to cover some of our expenses, but,
Phil Hudson:
But you don't have to do that. And you answer questions throughout the whole webinar as well. And we often put 'em on podcasts. So again, access to a professional writer I would've killed for 10 years ago that I never had, and then a paper orchestra book. I think that was something you were going to talk about. You were going to tell us a little bit about that process. You're doing the audiobook, right? Oh,
Michael Jamin:
One of the things. Yeah, I'm excited. That'll be dropping in a couple months because we're still producing the audiobook. And what I've always, when I was writing this, it's a collection of personal essays, but there's stories, it's not about, it's not an essay. It feels like a story. It feels like you could shoot it, it feels like an episode of television show. But I wanted people to, at the end when as I was writing it, I want people to feel something and feel something like laugh and then feel this maybe discomfort at the end or something to hit 'em in the heart. And I want them to sit in it, and I don't want them, as I was writing, I was like, how do I get people to just sit in this and not turn the chapter once the chapter's over, I want 'em to sit in it. I don't even want 'em to turn the page. I want 'em to really just feel it for a while. And in the audio book, how do you do that in a regular book? You can't. You can only hope that they do that. When I do my show, as I perform this, as I say afterwards, my goal is I want you to go to your car and just before you turn the ignition, just sit in it.
I'm rocked. I'm too rocked to even turn the ignition for a couple half a minute or whatever. But for the audiobook, I'm actually able to do this. I'm actually can force you to do this because I do the story. And I gave each story the audiobook to this composer that I work with, Anthony Rizzo on Marin, who's working with me on the audiobook. And I said, if this story, if this piece, this chapter was a piece of music, what would it sound like to you? And so this is his chance to do his art. He came back with these beautiful scores. So at the end of every piece, every chapter, it goes into music that he wrote. And you just listen to it and it's like it carries you out. It carries the last note of the stories, the note, the first note of his score. And it really forces just, and some of they're up and some of them are down, and some of them are happy and some, but it is wonderful how he did this. And so the audio book, I think this makes it more of an experience. And I haven't heard an audio book done this way,
Phil Hudson:
So that's so cool. And this, having had the privilege of seeing you perform this live last year in la it did that. It did that for me. I still think I'm thinking about it now. I think it was your story, I think it was called Ghost, is that right? Goul.
Michael Jamin:
The Goul. The Goul, yeah.
Phil Hudson:
And yeah, man, just thinking about that, all that emotion comes right back. Yeah,
Michael Jamin:
The score he did for that, the score he did is fricking haunting. I was like, man, this is really good. So I'm so excited.
Phil Hudson:
So the cool thing is for people who can't see you live, they can get a taste of that performance of you live with it sounds like plussed up with some amazing music too.
Michael Jamin:
And I do hope to tour with it, but obviously not to every city. It has to be your, I guess, bigger cities. But, and so if you want to know more about that or be notified when it drops, it's michaeljamin.com/upcoming. And yeah, we're working on it. But
Phil Hudson:
The only other thing was the newsletter. The watch. Oh, the newsletter to do weekly, your top three things. Also updates. We started adding updates like what podcast episodes coming out, what webinars coming up, that kind of stuff. Just a little bit more informational, but the value is still there. With those three free pieces of content delivered every Friday, right to your inbox. We proactively work to not do anything marketable or salesy to that newsletter. So if you want a lot of free content and you don't really care too much about some of the other stuff that we're doing with the course and that you're safe there, go sign up for the watch list because it's really meant just to be a value add of content that you're putting out already. Just digesting it and getting it to people directly in their inbox.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Yeah. So Phil's in charge of all of that. Phil, you do a great job just in keeping all of that up to date and keeping your website up to date.
Phil Hudson:
We just did a whole revamp on it because when we changed systems last year, there were a lot of people who wanted marketing that were not getting it because we tried to protect that watch list so much from any types of salesy stuff. And you're really big on that. You don't want to be a salesy guy at all. So we did clean that up a bit. So if you haven't been here from Michael and you start, it's because we clean that up, but we even just set it up so they can manage their own list. So if they want to be marketed to and they decide they don't, they can unsubscribe from that. But keep the watch list. We really did a lot of that stuff, trying to make it better.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. And thank you for all that. Yeah. Alright, everyone, thank you. Another a great episode, Phil, and I'll be back very soon with more. Until then, keep writing.
Phil Hudson:
This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar@michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music, by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.
This week, for the 100th episode we have Writer/Actor/Executive Producer Steve Lemme (Super Troopers, Beer Fest, Tacoma FD and many many more) talk about his early career, his on-going collaboration with Kevin Heffernan and doing stand up.
Steve Lemme on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0501399/
Steve Lemme on Twitter: https://twitter.com/SteveLemme
Steve Lemme on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/steve_lemme/
Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/
Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course
Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free
Join My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlist
Steve Lemme:
Some guys were psyched that I had gotten it out there and the studio was psyched because fucking, it was massive. It was a massive announcement that got all those views. And so it was like, then the guys that were kind of mad about it were like, but don't feel like you did the right thing here. What you did was wrong. I was like, I know what I did was wrong. I'll never do it again. They're like, so don't feel justified. I'm like, I know, but then guys are looking at each other. But it is pretty fucking sweet and I definitely did the wrong thing and I would not advise that to anybody.
Michael Jamin:
You're listening to Screenwriters need to hear this with Michael lemin.
Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear this. I'm Michael and this is episode 100 of this podcast. And as an honor, I thought I would bestow this great honor onto the man. Yes. Yeah, I'm giving you the honor. It's an honor for you Lemme onto the man who's kept me employed for the past four years or more. Ladies and gentlemen, if you're listening to the podcast in your car, please pull over and give a warm round of applause to Mr. Steven Lemme. Lemme.
Lemme tell people who you are, just by the way, this is the in case they don't know. So Lemme, as we call him, is the star and exec creator and executive producer showrunner of the show. I'm currently running on Tacoma fd, but you may know him. He's got a long track record of indie movies. We're going to talk about how he got these old made, including Super Troopers, bottle Cruiser Club, dread Beer Fest, lamb and Salmon, a bunch of stuff, including the latest one is quasi. I know I'm skipping over your complete filmography, but I want to give you a chance to talk. Let me thank you for being on my show here.
Steve Lemme:
I feel like you could just go on forever talking about me.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, that would be the ideal Pat podcast for you. Just tell me more about me.
Steve Lemme:
I would prefer that. I would prefer that.
Michael Jamin:
Why? Is that? Because you're tired of telling your story over and over?
Steve Lemme:
No, I don't really get tired speaking about myself, but what I get less tired of is like I've gone and done some publicity lately. For instance, I did watch What Happens Live with Andy Cohen. Do you know what that show is?
Michael Jamin:
No, I didn't know that. Where is that?
Steve Lemme:
It's on the Bravo Channel. All those shows.
Michael Jamin:
All the shows you don't watch. Yeah. Yeah.
Steve Lemme:
I watch them. I watch because,
Michael Jamin:
Because your wife watches them.
Steve Lemme:
Well, that's exactly how a lot of people get sucked into it. It's because somebody else is watching and you walk through the room and you're like, what stupid show are you watching? I started watching, it was Real Housewives of New Jersey, and I walked through, I was like, who are these fucking people? And my wife was like, it's Real Housewives of New Jersey. They're just, last week, this chick right here flipped up a table and called this other one a prostitution whore. And then they actually showed it on the tv. They replayed what happened last week in a flashback. I was like, wait a second, hold on. And I sat down and I was like, hold on a second. Hold on a second. What happened? Why would she flip up a table? What's wrong with her? And she's like, well, that's the thing she's on. And there was born another fan of these shows. And then you try to resist.
Michael Jamin:
But wait, I want to know, you got to answer the question though. Why is it you didn't want to talk about yourself in the beginning? I asked you, is it because you do so much publicity?
Steve Lemme:
I got off track, I got off track, but it's not that I don't want to talk about myself because
Michael Jamin:
I think it must get hard answering the same thing over and
Steve Lemme:
Over again again. Well, sometimes I fascinate myself, Michael, and so I find great comfort in hearing myself speak while I'm saying it. I'm like, oh, this is nice. What I'm saying right now is good. And I'm enjoying my own company. I'm a big believer in actually my way into the arts was my mom saying, because I didn't have a lot of money growing up. And actually that's actually, it's mostly true, but it's more that my mom was a teacher at a really wealthy private school. And so whatever is the reality or not, and I suspect it actually is real. I didn't have much money growing up. It felt less to maybe I was hanging out with people that had, it's like the kind where after Christmas, or you go to their house before Christmas and there's a million presents under the tree.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, that's right. And
Steve Lemme:
You're like, Jesus, I've got two. And even that's better than a lot of people. That's why I hesitate to complain about it and put myself in that place. But when I was a kid, I would complain about not having toys and my mom would hand me paper and crayons and pencil and pen and scissors and scotch tape and say, make something, entertain yourself. And she would say, if you can't have fun with yourself, you'll never be happy. And so, by the way, am I allowed to be dirty on this podcast?
Michael Jamin:
You can say whatever you want to say.
Steve Lemme:
I was about to make a masturbation joke, which I know you
Michael Jamin:
Would like. I was already there.
Steve Lemme:
But anyway, my point is, so now that's totally off the market.
Michael Jamin:
You're saying this. This is your introduction to the arts,
Steve Lemme:
Right? So anyway, oh, I was saying I enjoy spending time with myself, the arts, but the point is I went on Andy Cohen, watch What Happens Live. And this has happened so many times where the intro, the way they introduce you is dog shit. And he didn't mention the movies, he didn't mention Broken Lizard. He just said he's on a new TV series on Hulu called Quasi
Michael Jamin:
Thanks for getting everything wrong,
Steve Lemme:
Which was not true either. And then it's like, look, I'm aware that a lot of, there is a younger generation of people who aren't familiar with Broken Lizard or those movies or Super Troopers or Beer Fest or anything like that, or they haven't watched it, but there are fans there. And also a lot of times if I don't know my mustache, people won't recognize me, but if they say it, if you get a nice intro, at least it gives you some credibility. But in this case, I was some jackass at the bar, the celebrity bartender. And so anyway, I like a good intro. I like to get stroked.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Did I stroke you enough when I brought you on?
Steve Lemme:
You did. You did. But I could have listened to more. You
Michael Jamin:
Could to the thing about you, and I've said this before and I'll say it publicly, there are one of the great joys of working with you is that you are an open book when you talk about stories from your past and you're brutally honest. And the best comedians that I've worked with are the same way. Mark Merrim is the same way. He'd say things in the room, you'd be like, whoa, I can't believe you're telling me this. And you're the same way. So it makes it so much easier to write for you because you're just being vulnerable and you're sharing yourself and there's no judgment there. It's just funny.
Steve Lemme:
Thank you for saying that. I know that about myself. Kevin will say, I have no filter. That's what he will say, but I'll tell him he's too filtered.
Michael Jamin:
Right?
Steve Lemme:
I'll say, Kevin, you need to open up a little bit and share of yourself. Interesting. But it also puts the other writers at ease and encourages them to tell stories. It's like if I'm willing to tell the story about, again, it's like a lot of these things tend to wind up being a little bit crass, but it's like if I'm willing to tell a disgusting story about myself or a story where I embarrass myself horribly,
Michael Jamin:
Or a sex dream you had, for example,
Steve Lemme:
I've had several
Michael Jamin:
With one of your friends.
Steve Lemme:
Okay.
Michael Jamin:
I don't want to say who, that's a great example.
Steve Lemme:
No. So that's a great example. So can you hear the noise? We're
Michael Jamin:
Doing an interview here.
Steve Lemme:
My wife has come in with the children, so she doesn't know, and I'm displaced. I don't have an office with doors anymore, so I'm,
Michael Jamin:
There's some damage to his house. So he's got to do an impromptu
Steve Lemme:
Yeah, the whole, but go ahead side of the house is flooded. Okay. So the story is, so Michael and I have, I'll even say the guy's name.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, okay.
Steve Lemme:
It makes it better. We have a common friend named Eric Levy. You grew up with him in Fresh Chester?
Michael Jamin:
Yes, in high school. Yeah.
Steve Lemme:
He and I went to college together, and I don't even know if this is proper improper to say, but I'm not gay and neither is he. But I had a dream about him where he showed up at my house with 50 bags of McDonald's burgers and then it cuts to me fucking him in the ass. But he was on top of me.
Michael Jamin:
I still love this story and then go on.
Steve Lemme:
But I told the story because whatever we were riffing on, it was like, what about those? And then I told him about it.
Michael Jamin:
Yes. And how did he take videos? I
Steve Lemme:
Called him up laughing the next morning and was like, holy shit, this is so fucking funny. I had this dream about it. You're never going to believe it. And there's a lot of guys who would be like, I'm taking that one to the grave. But the additional joke for me is that when I have with Reba McIntyre, I had a sex dream about her. And to me, when you have a sex dream about somebody, what's the difference between actually having sex with them? Because in real life, if you have sex with somebody afterwards, it's just a memory and it lives longer in your memory. And so to me, it's like if you have a vivid sex dream about Reeb McIntyre, which I did, and then it lives on in your memory, it kind of counts.
Michael Jamin:
But no, because no consent. She didn't consent to that either. Did Levy,
Steve Lemme:
You're saying
Michael Jamin:
I'm was a nonconsensual sex dream that you had with both of them?
Steve Lemme:
I don't know. I feel like there's a blurry line there.
Michael Jamin:
But this is just a good example. You told this story probably the first year to call him after you in the writer's room. And I just remember laughing my ass off thinking, oh my God, this guy's going to be game for pretty much everything we pitch. And this makes easier to write.
Steve Lemme:
Well, and that's why you and I wound up sitting next to each other because you would always mutter filthy little offerings under your breath to me.
Michael Jamin:
You would enjoy them. Yeah,
Steve Lemme:
I didn't. I enjoyed them quite a bit. I enjoyed,
Michael Jamin:
Lemme ask you that, because I don't know if I've ever asked you this or maybe I forgot. We met you. The show had just gotten picked up and we met through, we had the same management company, right? Yeah, of course we
Steve Lemme:
Did. I used to be with them. I'm not with them anymore, but Kevin is still with them.
Michael Jamin:
And that's how we had that meeting. And did you meet with other writers at our level or did you just laise out, say, fuck, we'll just hire these guys. I don't want to meet more people.
Steve Lemme:
Kevin and I get in trouble like that. We oftentimes do hire the first person we meet, which was you,
Michael Jamin:
Thank God.
Steve Lemme:
Yeah. But I think we did. God, they're really making a racket over there. I did. We did meet with one other set of showrunners, I believe. But then what happens anyway, if Kevin and I get past the first interview and make it to the second one by the second one, we're definitely bored and we realize we've made a mistake by prolonging this process. So with us with timing is key. If you get in with us early, if you ever hear about a Lemme Heffernan gig, get your resume to us immediately because you
Michael Jamin:
Hire the first person you see
Steve Lemme:
You got the job. Yeah.
Michael Jamin:
That's so funny. I know you're good that way. What is it like, I haven't asked you this question, but you do most, you don't do all your projects with Kevin, you do a lot of your projects with him or ever it now, is it everything?
Steve Lemme:
No, I have some side projects.
Michael Jamin:
How do you decide what you're doing with him and what you're not doing?
Steve Lemme:
Well, I try to do most things with Kevin, and I think Kevin would agree to this. For whatever reason, I sometimes find that Kevin is a little tougher to drag into things. I believe he will corroborate this. So I had the idea, we've kicked around the notion of firefighters for a while, but I said to him, let's do it.
And then he said, what's the hook going to be? And I came back with this rainiest city in the country hook because it was super troopers, the most asserted stretch of highway in the country. And even then I had to drag him and I want to be careful with this because we developed a show then together and really fleshed it out. So it's like, and he has also had many ideas in those TV sessions. He also had some ideas that he wanted to do, but the animation thing now is another one I felt. I feel like it took me a long time to just get him to really be into it.
Michael Jamin:
I know it did.
Steve Lemme:
And actually I'm going to tell you, I think he's only finally into it now. Today,
Michael Jamin:
Today, today
Steve Lemme:
For the last few weeks I We'll tell the story. We'll tell the story. But now and again, to be fair, it's like I was bringing it up probably two years ago, maybe longer, and he would say, okay, sure. But then we'd be writing the series or then we went into pre-production on quasi, which he was directing, but I never just ever got the sense that he really wanted to do it.
Michael Jamin:
But do you get the sense that he ever wants to do anything?
Steve Lemme:
No, and that's my point. That's my point. And what I realized with Kevin, and it's fine again, it's like because we're busy, but sometimes you just have to move the ball forward and he'll tell me the same thing just in general about things, and I actually think this is true in Hollywood anyway, if you want to do something, you just have to move the ball forward on your own if you can't get interest. And eventually at some point there's like, okay, this is what I've got.
Michael Jamin:
Are you, you know what though? When I talk about you, I talk about you guys specifically when I talk about people who've done inspiring things, because when I describe what you broken lizard, I describe you as Hollywood outsiders. There are ways that you can call the traditional way and the way you guys came, you just did it. You didn't ask for permission, you did it and you created a career from yourself and became so valuable that Hollywood now wants you as opposed to you begging Hollywood. It's the other way around.
Steve Lemme:
I think we're still begging Hollywood. I think with Supert Troopers three and our relationship with Searchlight has evolved to the point where the studio has said, we want to work with you. And that's how we got quasi and that's how we got Supert Troopers two, but Supert Troopers two, they were reluctant, but that's the way the business works. Then that movie did well and there were new studio heads and it's like, okay, this is a new relationship that this's really healthy. I think that everything that Tevin has ever gotten and that I have ever gotten, we have gotten for ourselves. Even though we have agents and I have great agents and managers who bring me things Now
Michael Jamin:
Are they bringing you, what talent are they bringing you ideas? What are they bringing you?
Steve Lemme:
My management and my agency will bring me TV and movie ideas to potentially
Michael Jamin:
For who?
Steve Lemme:
My management company. They have a big lit department, a big book and division, and so does my agency. So my management is Gotham Group, and then my agency is c a a and that every Friday, c a a sends me books, the books that are out, the new books and it's like, yeah, I mean I've never gone down that road. There was only one book I wanted to buy and then the rights to, and then my old manager poo-pooed the idea. And then I found out that three months later, Showtime bought that book and I was like, you son of a bitch. But
Michael Jamin:
Wait, when they're sending are these best, these are, how are they getting the books? I don't know anything about it. They're getting bestsellers. These are the bestseller lists, these books.
Steve Lemme:
So my management company represents authors and c a A. They have a literature, a book literature division in New York City that represents writers and or publishers. I'm not sure really how it works, but I'm just telling you, every Friday I get a list of these things and how
Michael Jamin:
Interesting it is. It's so funny because you're getting an email list. I don't get an email list of books from U T A, how hard is it to put me on an email list?
Steve Lemme:
And that's the thing. And the thing is it's been years now and I've never even responded to the email. Then I think that I'm on an automated list now, which is actually, it's nice. I should actually look at the thing. I should look at the list.
Michael Jamin:
Are there PDFs attached or you request a book?
Steve Lemme:
I'll forward it to you on the side.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Okay. I'm just curious how Hollywood works
Steve Lemme:
Well, but I think it works. It's so funny. It works so differently in every way. In fact, the joke that Kevin and I have, and I'll finish speaking about Kevin and the animation thing, but because kind of a funny story, but Kevin and I have always marveled at how Hollywood never has a shortage of original ways to screw you over.
Michael Jamin:
Oh, yes.
Steve Lemme:
And right now we've got another one going, which is that we've got the strike going and Kevin and I have a TV show that we can't promote, and it's like we worked really hard on it. We worked for over a year on it. We actually got pushed, the release got pushed six months or five months because that network in shambles. And then three weeks before it's going to come out, they say it's going to come out in July and then the strike happens. And we had been recording podcasts that would be accompany pieces with the episodes, and my older son acted in last week's episode. I couldn't promote it. My younger son is acting in this week's episode, I can't talk about it. And it's like, that's actually one of the most heartbreaking parts is that I got to act with one son in a scene. And where he was playing, me as a young boy, my character was a young boy and I was playing his grandfather. And then my other son, I got to direct in a scene where he gets to say dirty words and I can't talk about it. And I'm like, Jesus, what a screw here.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. That's so fun, by the way. I know I'm hopping around, but what's it like when your comedy soup, broken lizard, is it weird to be acting against these same people over and over again and pretending, okay, now today we're pretending to be one thing, and I'm yelling at you, but we're actually friends on the side. Is that weird? Is there a moment when you're acting like, wait a minute, we're best friends?
Steve Lemme:
No, because funny, because Kevin and I, first of all with Kevin, he and I have now done so many, so much together and so many emotional scenes together. But we'd like to say it's so emotion. We don't deal with emotion. We deal with foam motion, as you know. And so it's like if you watch quasi, he and I have a few big blowup scenes with voice cracking and Tacoma. We have plenty of scenes where we yell at each other and sometimes we get emotional with each other. And I always think it's funny for us, it's also like we've been friends so long and we're so on each other's nerves all the time that these things are therapy sessions. Because a lot of the time in the show we're discussing things that bother him about me and me about him. And so
Michael Jamin:
Is there a moment where you're in the scene, you're supposed to be in character, and then suddenly you check, you go, wait a minute, he's just doing his thing and I'm doing my thing. And we're both doing make believe.
Steve Lemme:
The only time I ever feel that way is if we start improvising. And he starts, we had one, I can't remember what the episode was, but he said, oh, I know it was the episode, the chili Cookoff where he's fucked up on dental drugs. He had his wisdom teeth removed and he improvised a line like, oh, you must be, he's like, are we on a rollercoaster? Are we on a rollercoaster? He's like, oh, hey. Hey Eddie, you have to be this tall to ride this roller coaster. And I was like, well, and there's a maximum weight limit as well. And I felt bad about that. I was like, it didn't matter that he had made a short joke at me. At first, I felt bad that I had made a fat joke, and that happens periodically. I throw one out probably once every three months. So once a quarter I'll make a heavy guy joke.
Michael Jamin:
Is it weird though hanging out with him outside of work though, when you see each other so much?
Steve Lemme:
I think I'm good for him. The other day, a couple of months ago, I was like, why don't we just go out and hang out? And he's like, I see you every day. And I was like, that's exactly why we should hang out. We see each other every day because we are working together, but let's go have some beers and some tacos and have some laughs and not work.
Michael Jamin:
And did you do that?
Steve Lemme:
Yeah. And it's funny because one of my favorite pastimes is being right over a Kevin. I don't mean in the collaborative sense, but when my point of view is correct and yours is incorrect, which it was in that case, he was like, okay,
Okay, fine. Alright, so let's go back to the animation thing. I was saying, I don't even think so with the animations, it took a while for me to get him. He would agree in theory, but then it was like there was never any, whenever he would talk about upcoming projects, I'd always be like, and we should talk about animation one of these days. He'd be like, yeah, okay. And I couldn't get him to engage. And then even I said, finally, let's just sit down. Just give me five minutes. I'm going to go through a list of animation ideas and let's discuss them. He said, okay. And so I sent them to him in advance and literally it was one line. It was like the lumberjacks, it was whatever, and including the one that we're working on. And he said, okay, I like these and that's fine.
That's all I needed. And so then I started to flesh those things out and I would show them to him. Now, see, Kevin is a machine. He's a computer, and so if you really want to get his attention, you have to show him a piece of paper with something on it, and he puts it in his pile and he makes a list. And so then a week later I'll be like, have you had a chance to read the thing? And so what Kevin respects is work, which a lot of people do, it's in a creative process. It's like, don't tell me you don't like a joke if you don't have a replacement idea or don't say like, Hey, let's work on something and bother me about it if it's not real, if you just want me to actually make the first step. And so it's like if you give him the first step and it's like, Hey, I've done this work.
He respects that, and so he'll read it. So then it was funny then because he was doing, he was editing quasi and we were in the writer's room for season four. You guys are busy. And I said, I'll do all the work on the animation thing. And so it's like I started to flesh it out and then I'd sent him this, the pitch document, here are the characters. And we started to get it together and what we were going to do, and the plan was that during a hiatus, we were going to wind up pitching these two producers who had been the president and vice president of True tv, and they were the ones who bought Tacoma FD and put us on the air, and they'd done everything that Thursday night with us in Practical Jokers. We were winning cable and they were beating t b s, their sister company, and then at t took over and they just got punted.
So they did everything and they got fired, but we always had a good relationship and we always said, Hey, we'll work together again. At some point they approached me and they said, Hey, do you want to do some animated? We've got something going. So the idea then I told Kevin was like, we're going to pitch this during the first hiatus. And the hiatus for people who don't know is that after we shoot in blocks, so we shot the first three episodes in one block and Kevin directed all of them, and we took a week off to scout locations for the second block and prep, and that was the block I was directed. And so that was two more episodes, but in that first week, then we were ready to pitch Chris and Marissa. And so even the night before the pitch, I kept saying to Kevin, I was, so tomorrow we are pitching Chris and Marissa.
He's like, but it's not like a pitch though. It's a conversation. I was like, well, it actually is a pitch. He's like, but it's not like a formal pitch. We're just talking to 'em. I'm like, no, we're actually pitching them. I'm pitching them the show, but don't worry. I'll do all the talking. And he said, fine. And so the next day we got on the Zoom with them. I pitched them the show, they seemed to love it, and we went our separate ways and they brought it to their studio that they're involved with. And three days later, we found out that studio was going to make an offer, which they did. And then we negotiated that offer for several months, which a lot of people who are not in Hollywood don't realize that sometimes negotiations can take nine months, sometimes a year. In this case, I think it was a six month thing. And in that period of time, we approached you guys, brought you guys in, and then we went to our first meeting with them after the deal. All the deal had been signed and everything. And you remember we were outside?
Michael Jamin:
Yes.
Steve Lemme:
Kevin asked me, he was like, have we,
Michael Jamin:
I asked Kevin, it started, I asked Kevin. Kevin didn't have the answer, so he asked you.
Steve Lemme:
Yeah, and the question was,
Michael Jamin:
Have we sold this?
Steve Lemme:
Have we actually sold this then? And the reason you asked that for people who don't know is most commonly, certainly before the streamers and the network time, there was something called an if come offer. And this was, I think the norm for most people who hadn't done anything. I went to a studio and I said, I've got an idea for a TV show. They might say, Hey, we love it. We're going to make you an if come offer. And what that is is we'll pay you X amount of dollars if a network says they want to do the show. And if not, we're not paying you anything. But because we've made you this offer, you're with us. And that was the norm. And we took that and we would negotiate that. We would negotiate a deal that we're not getting paid on unless somebody else says yes. And it's called an if come offer. And so that was the nature of that question. Have we actually sold this thing? Are we getting paid? And Kevin asked me and I was like, yes, we've sold it. But he put so much doubt into me that it was like, I think we're pitching again.
So then we went in and sat with our executive producers, the people who had bought it, the producers who had brought us to them and sold it for us. And I pitched it again, but now I was nervous. I didn't do a great job pitching.
Michael Jamin:
No, you did great. You did great. And they loved it.
Steve Lemme:
But then it turns out, yes, we had sold it. We were going to get paid and we were moving forward. So then Kevin was very surprised. He's like, oh, I gave shit about that. And even then, he wasn't totally on board until we saw the animation. We were writing the script and he was like, yes, fine. It's still abstract. But it wasn't until we got into when they sent us potential sketches and artwork for all the characters and the locations and the scenes and settings that he said to me for the first time, this is really cool.
Michael Jamin:
Oh, good.
Steve Lemme:
There's a whole other world in Hollywood that we've never been a part of that we're a part of now. I was like, yeah,
Michael Jamin:
Yeah.
Steve Lemme:
So anyway.
Michael Jamin:
That's hilarious. How would you decide what projects not to do with them then?
Steve Lemme:
Oh,
Michael Jamin:
I don't think, do you have many? You've done some, but why would you not do a project with them?
Steve Lemme:
It just depends. And it's funny. There are times where I actually think I've said to him, and I mean this, that even if I do something separately, we'll still produce it with our production company. He'll be involved. I have a TV script that I've been working on for a long time that I probably wrote it back in 2009, and it's very much about that period, my high school years when I was at this elite private school and I was feeling like an outsider, but I wasn't an outsider. I had a great group of friends, and I was actually, I hate to say it, but I was fairly popular, but I felt like I didn't belong at this place. I almost felt like an imposter. And we were there, not because we were wealthy, which it was the school full of wealthy people because my mom had been a teacher there, and now she was gone there. So I didn't, they had only given me a partial scholarship when I was three when I first went there. But that's a
Michael Jamin:
Good idea. I think that could sell. That's a good idea.
Steve Lemme:
Well, and there was more to it, which is that I also had this job, I worked as a back elevator man
Because one of my friends, his family was so wealthy, they owned all these buildings in New York City, and he got me a job. I made $10 an hour working as a back elevator man slash janitor, luxury high-rise building in New York City that some people from my high school lived at, which was really hard to have them see me. But more importantly, I worked with these guys down in the basement who were lifers. There was a murderer down there who had fled the Dominican Republic. He had decapitated a guy, and he is a great guy. He's a great guy. He had decapitated a guy after a cock fight, he had a fighting bird. And by the way, he's telling me this story with a thick Dominican accent. He keeps saying, and my cock defeated the other guy's cock. And I'm like, whoa, I'm only 15 years old at this point in time. And the guy picked up his dead cock and the
Michael Jamin:
Cock
Steve Lemme:
His lifeless dead bloody cock. Yeah,
Michael Jamin:
Flacid cock.
Steve Lemme:
Yeah. And the claw and the beaker sharpened on these creatures and this guy,
Michael Jamin:
Did they sharpen them for the fights? Yeah. Wow, that sounds awful. You just made something bad, even worse.
Steve Lemme:
I know. Well, so then this guy, the loser, picked up his dead bloody flacid, lifeless cock and slapped my coworker across the cheek with it, and the beak cut his cheek. My coworker told me this over lunch break. He was like, I went home and I calmly sharpened my machete and I went to his house and I knocked on the door. He opened the door and I cut his head off and he said, and that is when I came to America.
Michael Jamin:
Wow.
Steve Lemme:
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So I was working down there with these guys, and the irony was that they would get taxes taken out of their paychecks. And I, I was a student, and so I was actually making more than these guys, but they also thought I was a rich kid. I was friends with the owner of the building and they knew that. And to them, I was the richest guy in the world, and I was going to a prep school. I had my whole future ahead of me. So I didn't kind of belong in that world either.
Michael Jamin:
It's a little flamingo kid.
Steve Lemme:
There was some flamingo kid there. Yeah. I was also a break dancer and a professional dancer.
Michael Jamin:
I know
Steve Lemme:
That. And I was not really welcome in that community. So anyway,
Michael Jamin:
Why are you sitting on this? You should get that. Well, there's a strike. I wouldn't wait much longer on it.
Steve Lemme:
I sent the script out back in 2009, and it was incredibly well received, but this is pre streamers, and I sent it to H B O in Showtime, and I had a meeting with the president of H B O who, she was like, I love your script. I love your script, but I can't do a show about a 14 year old protagonist. And she said, but bring me everything you've got, and this is pre everything interesting. It's pre this new golden age of television. And same at Showtime. I had the same conversation. She's like, the lady was like, I love it. Absolutely love it.
Michael Jamin:
It was the 14 year old protagonist. That's such an odd thing because everybody hates Chris and Wonder years. There's plenty of shows about,
Steve Lemme:
But it was R-rated, it was an honest look. It was also part of the pitch was I see all these, when you see high school shows about in New York City, for instance, about a wealthy school, the rich kids are so fucked up
And so evil and so conniving, and that wasn't my experience. And it was also like, or it's incredibly, incredibly cliquey with the fucking bully rich kids or the scummy fucking drug using druggies. I was like, that wasn't my experience at all, or it's incredibly angst-ridden. And I was like, I feel like there were a lot of incredibly fun experimental times. Yes, there were painful times, but there were also a lot of incredible times, and I never saw a good mixture of those things. Anyway, so I have been, and also the funny thing, the honest part was I made masturbation a heavy part of the show, the Cold Open. My character is masturbating in the shower, and his dad's trying to get in
Michael Jamin:
And
Steve Lemme:
It's like a freeze frame. He's looking at the doorknob and the whole thing is that irony and the hypocrisy of the fact that in high school, your hormones are going raging and you're all masturbating, or the boys certainly were, can't speak to the girls, but no one would talk about it. And so my friends and I would be like, one of my friends would be like, you whack off. I'd be like, fuck no, I don't whack off. I'm not gay. And he's like, no, I know. I've never even touched my dick. I've never even touched my dick. How about you? You whack off. I was like, no fucking way. Do I whack off? And then it's like, but I know you whack off. He's like, fuck you, I don't whack off. And you're like, yeah, you whack off. Everybody's dying to get home and fucking beat off. I was a part of the
Michael Jamin:
Script dying to get home.
Steve Lemme:
So I've toned that part down in the script. I literally am revising it right now. I found a great thing that I wanted to include in it, a couple of new things. So I'm writing it. I'm using the strike to write.
Michael Jamin:
Well, sure. Everyone should be, I guess. But what about you guys also do a lot of standup, which is very different. Do you have a preference to how you spend your days?
Steve Lemme:
It makes me sad that I haven't done standup in five years.
Michael Jamin:
Really? Well, what's stopping you?
Steve Lemme:
Well, now, nothing. And I was thinking about it today, I am like, I should write a new set. Kevin and I filmed our third special right before we sold Tacoma. And when we sold Tacoma, it was when Super Troopers two was coming out. And so we did a few more live shows to promote Tacoma, but then we never had time because then it was like we were writing the season, we got renewed for season two, and then it's like, it's so much work. And even after we write and then we go right into shooting, and then after shooting, the hardest part of the show process is the six months of editing. And then it's like, I
Michael Jamin:
Think that's the best part. Because you're not on set. It's not as exhausting.
Steve Lemme:
Well, it's not as physically exhausting. Correct. And I mean, look, now in the days of Zoom, I'm home. I actually, I love it, but there's no time to, that's a nine to 6:00 PM or 11:00 PM job depending on what day of the week it is and what time of the editing process. I'm here with my family. And so it's like we've been fortunate enough to have four seasons where we have a week or two off, and then we have to start getting the writer's room together again. I'm not complaining about at all. I'm not even grousing. The one thing I really enjoyed doing for 10 years before we got that show was standup comedy, which you've done,
Michael Jamin:
But I mean, I did in college, so I was never at your level where I was touring and booking rooms.
Steve Lemme:
Well, but you do tour with a one man show and you do.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, that's a little different. Yeah, it's not standup. Yeah,
Steve Lemme:
It's a little different, but it's still performing and getting out there and trying out material. I know if you have a story, I mean, I haven't seen your show,
Michael Jamin:
You must come. But what I find about it is, and I was talking about this with Taylor Swift, she's got this three hour concert, and when I was performing,
Steve Lemme:
Wait, wait, wait. You talked about this with Taylor
Michael Jamin:
Swift? No, I said this with my daughter about Taylor Swift's show.
Steve Lemme:
That's a
Michael Jamin:
Different big difference. Yeah. I got to clarify. So Taylor Swift's performing in her show is three, three and a half hours long. And so when I was doing my show, it was an hour and a half long, but it's the end of the day. It's at eight o'clock or whatever. The whole day I'm exhausted because I'm nervous. I'm preparing myself. And then at eight o'clock I'm up, and for the next hour and a half I'm giving everything. And then you're fricking then afterwards, you're still on a high, but you're exhausted. And then you got to do it again the next day where you're like, you're wringing your hands all day and you're pacing and then it is exhausting. You don't think
Steve Lemme:
I do. I do. Especially when you do Thursday, Friday, Saturday and the Friday and Saturday you're doing two shows in the night
Michael Jamin:
And you're traveling
Steve Lemme:
And you're traveling. And also what Kevin and I would do is we would do meet and greets after every show, free ones, not like the ones where you pay extra and you get to come backstage. We would go, we'd tell people we're going to do a meet and greet out here after the show, come by and say hi. And so you're meeting half of the people that were at the show. Oftentimes that meet and greet would take an hour or more. She found that to be even more exhausting.
Michael Jamin:
Do you have a time limit with each person you're meeting and greeting?
Steve Lemme:
No, not really. I mean, it depends on the club or the theater. Because the first show, there's a natural out. You've got a second show, come on folks, and then you bang people through. And the second show, that's the one where people come up and they want to chug.
Michael Jamin:
That's kind of your brand, which is like, Hey, yeah, chug. And we're all college bros. But I wonder what's your thinking? You could do the other way. You could put a little separation between your audience and not do a meet and greet.
Steve Lemme:
You could, and I'm trying to think if there was ever a time where we came up with a reason or we had a reason not to, but I don't think so. There's something like we've always had this philosophy of meeting the fans and Jim Gaffigan once said it. He said, I'll meet them until I can't, meaning, and now he can't. He's just
Michael Jamin:
Too big.
Steve Lemme:
He's too big. It's impossible.
Michael Jamin:
Hey, it's Michael lemin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.
But how long? Is it 30 seconds or are you talking to the guy who doesn't want to talk anymore? How do you know when it's time to move on to the next person? There's a line.
Steve Lemme:
There's all different kinds of people. There's some people who just want to come and take a picture. There's some people who appreciate that there's a line behind them and you got to keep things moving. There's some people who are going to stay and talk to you until you have them move on. You'll be like, Hey, okay, but I hate to do this. Or the club will have security guards and they'll be like, all right, let's move it along. Let's go, let's go. We got a lot of people there. But I think that's something I've never really, I don't know. I've always enjoyed meeting people, and a lot of times I know a lot of my friends are like, oh God, that person's crazy. Don't talk to them. And I'm like, no, that's the person I want to
Michael Jamin:
Talk to. Really. Did you really, you're not worried about them forming some kind of parasocial relationship with you and wanting to get really close to you?
Steve Lemme:
I've never had that happen. I mean, there's absolutely, look, I am a man from the planet earth, and I lived here for a long time before any sort of recognition, fan recognition or celebrity, what's happening for me. And so it's like I can tell when I'm having a real connection with a person as opposed to when they're connecting with me and I don't feel it. And I could certainly, I know when mostly now because I'm skeptical and paranoid and cynical that I just assume it's like if anybody tries too aggressively to be friends, it's over for them.
Michael Jamin:
Oh, really? I see with you, you're very gracious and you're very social way more than me. So you could spend hours with people. I feel like even people you don't like, and I've seen you do that. I've seen you do that actually.
Steve Lemme:
Well, it depends where we are, but it's not like if you're at a film festival and some producer is like laughing at everything you say, you're like,
Michael Jamin:
Yeah,
Steve Lemme:
Okay, we're not friends. It's people that you're just hanging out with. It's funny because have a friend named Champagne, Rob, who we met in Atlanta, and the reason he's called Champagne Rob is because he and his girlfriend came to our show and they were sitting in the front row drinking champagne, and we just ragged on them. We were like, what the fuck is going on here drinking champagne at our show? They're like, yeah, man, we're having a good time drinking some champagne. It was like we had a great interaction with them. And then on the meet and greet line, afterwards, they came to either the late Friday show or the late Saturday show, the late Friday. If you really want to be friends with us, the late Friday show is the one that you might have a crack at it. We don't go out Thursday night and we don't go out Saturday night.
Friday night's the one, you don't have to wake up for anything in the morning. So Friday night's the night we'd go after the late show, we'd go out and usually with people that we were friends with in our town and so on This particular night though, after that show, probably Friday night, then they were on the line and I had a joke about, I was talking about male grooming manscaping, and there was a poll given out to the people in the audience. Do you like it groomed or do you like it hairy? I'm like, it's a standup comedy. It's a set routine where I know that some women are going to be like you. It totally shaved. And you're like, well, what's wrong with a hairy one? And they're like, you get hair in your throat. And then my thing would be like, how far down are you going on this thing?
And then basically I'm calling 'em the cookie monster of it was the Dick Gobbler is What and how. They're like, mom, I'm just eating a shit out of this dick and getting all the way down there. And that was a routine I was doing. And so Champagne, Rob's girlfriend happened to be that girl. And so then they came up afterwards and they were like, Hey, I'm the Dick Gobbler. And he's like, I'm champagne rob. And we're like, oh. And we had a good laugh on the line and the guy's like, look. And I had some friends there and they were from Atlanta, and they're like, we don't really know where to go. And the guy was like, I know a speakeasy that's literally across the street, literally across the street. Come with me, well have a great time. He's like, I'm not creepy. Let's just go. It's going to be awesome. And we're like, all right, fine. Fuck it. And we went outside and there was his car, and the license plate was Muff diver. It was the fucking,
Michael Jamin:
But I'm not creepy, I swear.
Steve Lemme:
And then we went to this speakeasy and had an awesome time, and of course we're hanging out with the guy there because he's gotten us in this place and we're just having drinks. And it was a totally normal hang, and it was like there was no awkwardness and there was no, it was, a lot of times when you meet these people, sometimes they don't then know what to say and they'll just start to ask you about yourself and they'll ask you questions, how did this happen? And how did this happen? And you're like, well, if we can't get past this stage, we'll never be friends and it doesn't get past that stage. So it's like, but this guy's like, yeah, we're hanging out, we're having a great time. And then it's like, whatever. And then it turns out he was a Giants fan, like Kevin and I am, and he showed us a photo of his toilet that he has at home, and in the toilet down at the bottom where the poop hits the bottom of the toilet was a Dallas Cowboys star. And we're like, this guy's fucking hysterical. So anyway, and then it turned out he was a professional, what do you call it, jet skier
Sponsored by Hooters. And so the whole thing just made perfect sense. It was like,
Michael Jamin:
Be good friends in this guy. Let me ask though, if you decided you wanted to go on tour comedy wise, whatever, next week, how fast does that happen? Let's say you already have a set let's, you already have material. Do you call someone and it happens? Do you have a booker and it happens?
Steve Lemme:
Yeah, I would call at a a, I have my standup agent,
Which is actually how I got into C A A. I used to be with c a A, and then I went to U T A and I left U T A, and it was because I had a meeting with their standup agent who, I mean, I left U T A first and then I went to c a A, and it was the standup agent was the one who brought me in because at that point in time in 2009, we hadn't done anything. And so he was the guy who was like, oh, I think I can make some money for our agency with this fellow. And so he brought me in there.
Michael Jamin:
He books, he pimps you out to the various clubs, basically. Is that how that works? I'm surprised. C A A does that. I thought there was a smaller thing that smaller agents did not. Well,
Steve Lemme:
No, I mean, but there are agents who are bigger than others, so it's like he represents a lot of big people.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah,
Steve Lemme:
Big standups.
Michael Jamin:
So you could just, alright, literally you made a call today in a week or two, you could start touring basically.
Steve Lemme:
Yes.
Michael Jamin:
Wow.
Steve Lemme:
Yeah. But it depends. It also depends on, now it's been five years and we have the show. So the question would be what kind of places can we book? We know we can book the smaller places, we can sell those places out. We always were able to because of the movies that we had made. And so we enjoyed a success there that a lot of standup comedians, a luxury that a lot of that most standup comedians don't have. Because most standup comedians certainly back then had to do the club circuit. And first they would be doing five minutes, and then they strangers to people. So they'd have to make people like them, which to me is like 90% of the battle. Once you've already got the fans, you actually it a little bit more like you're giving a wedding toast. Not that your fans will accept subpar standup comedy, but they're more likely to give you the benefit of the doubt. And if you fuck up, you can just look at them and they'll be like, yeah. And you're like, I know I suck. And they're like, yeah, fuck you. And you're like, fuck you.
Michael Jamin:
Interesting. That's what Jay is doing now. He's on the road doing standup, right? I mean,
Steve Lemme:
Yeah, he's in the UK right now. He's actually breaking new ground in that. He's going do a show, a couple shows in England, which is, it's sort of like the logical next step for American standups. You go and do the uk, England, Ireland, Scotland, Australia.
Michael Jamin:
But you're not really interested in doing that now. I mean, because first of all, it's hard family. How long do you want to be on the road for? Or is that your thinking or No,
Steve Lemme:
I mean, I love doing standup comedy. I don't love touring. I only liked it because I was with Kevin and I wasn't alone. I did a couple of solo dates, and I found it to be very lonely
Michael Jamin:
Because the entire day, you're lonely,
Steve Lemme:
You're alone. And then at night after the show, it's like if Kevin and I were sort of wired, we could at least go back to the hotel bar and have a beer, or we could go to one of our rooms and smoke a joint or something like that. Whereas when you're alone, it's like you might hang out with the other comedians just fine. People want to make new friends. Or you go out with a staff or you meet a fan or something. Somebody's at the show, I don't know. Or you go out by yourself or you go back to the hotel room, but you're wired and it's a really weird thing to just get in bed and watch TV or something like that. Yeah,
Michael Jamin:
It's so interesting to be talking about. I don't know, all this is so new to me. The life of a performer for you. It's fascinating to me.
Steve Lemme:
Well, I think that is, it's funny. The worst standup experience I ever had was I was booked to do a solo weekend in Vermont in Burlington, Vermont. That
Michael Jamin:
Was lovely in the fall. It's perfect.
Steve Lemme:
It was perfect. And I'll tell you, it was probably, yeah, it was the fall. And what happened was to promote the show, I was interviewed by a Vermont free newspaper,
And the journalist asked me all these questions. And so Super Troopers two had been finished, and the studio said, we're going to wait a year to release it, because next year, on April 20th, April 20th Falls on Friday, so we can release the movie on Friday, April 20th on four 20. And so we're waiting for that day, the time to do it. We're like, okay. But they didn't announce the day, and they kept being like, they didn't know when they were going to announce it. And they kept it off, kept putting it off. They kept saying, soon, soon, soon, soon, soon. And it was killing everybody. And so I was doing this interview with this free newspaper, and the guy said, do you know the release date of Super Troopers two? I said, I do, but I can't tell you. And he said, come on, what is it? I was like, I honestly can't tell you. And he's like, come on, please tell me. And I was like, I can't tell you. I'm not going to tell you. And he said, okay. And so then we kept doing the interview, and then the interview was over, and he said, okay, the interview is over. And he said, now, as a fan, can you just tell me? And I said, I can't, I'm not going to, but I'll give you a hint. Oh
Michael Jamin:
No,
Steve Lemme:
There's a very popular stoner holiday that falls on a Friday next year. And he said, okay. And he was like, that's awesome. I was like, yeah. So then I was flying the next day to Vermont, and when I landed, there was messages, a text message from Heman like, you're in trouble.
Michael Jamin:
You guys are big mouth. What a puts, what
Steve Lemme:
A puts. And then the guy had an even kind of made fun of me. He's like, he wouldn't tell me the release date, but I pushed him and pushed him, and finally he told me it's four 20. And so that Jay was pissed off and my producer was pissed off. The studio was fucking furious. They wanted to announce it make best, but they had all the materials. They just weren't doing it. And so they were like, it was still this little teeny newspaper, a free newspaper, and it was like less week's.
Michael Jamin:
And you gave them the scoop, this free fucking Vermont maple
Steve Lemme:
Syrup. You get in a pizzeria, you just fucking,
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, I don't, you throw away, you wipe the table with,
Steve Lemme:
Yeah, get the
Michael Jamin:
Scoop.
Steve Lemme:
I was really fucking, this is Thursday. I did a show that night and I was fucking devastated. So I went out there and did a half-hearted show. My heart was heavy, and it was wait and see if anybody picks us up. And then Friday morning it got fucking picked up and was everywhere. And meanwhile, there were email threads with all the studio, the president of the studio and a hundred people from Searchlight, and then all the broken lizard, not me. And even my producer, I was like, dude, I'm suffering over here. You got to tell me what's going on. He just wrote back. He was fucking pissed off. Oh
Michael Jamin:
Wow.
Steve Lemme:
Yeah, no, it hurt. And I was like, I went jogging that day. And then they released it that day. They did the official release of the trailer and the date, and it got 8 million views in the first fucking 24 hours alone. But nobody was talking to me that whole weekend. I didn't know any of that, but I knew it was out there. But I knew I had rushed the process, but like I said, they had it and
Michael Jamin:
They just wanted to punish you.
Steve Lemme:
But then the next week there was a meeting at Searchlight on Wednesday to now game plan, and it was like the big question was, so that weekend fucking sucked. I did press on Friday morning and I did two shows on Friday night and Saturday night, and I had friends coming to the shows and I was so sad. I was sad Steve and I was alone. And the one guy who was kind of forgiving, who was actually totally forgiving was Kevin. And I also say Paul Soder, who you worked on Tacoma. Those guys were not so secretly they were like, you know what? I'm fucking glad you did it. Now it's out there finally. And they were psyched because now we could finally fucking talk about it. We were getting ass about all the time. So those guys were cool about it. The other guys weren't as happy with me. And then the big question was, was I going to go to that studio meeting? And I fucking went. I was like, I'm going to take my poison.
Michael Jamin:
Let's
Steve Lemme:
Go.
Michael Jamin:
Did they give you shit there?
Steve Lemme:
I went in and I made the saving Grace was that the trailer got 8 million views in the first 24 hours, and it was like, holy shit. It exceeded, it far exceeded and was now on pace at that moment in time. It was like that actually might have been the actual trailer. This was just a teaser and the announcement and it was huge. And so they were happy about that. That's the only thing that saved me because a couple of 'em, the head of marketing and the president were not that fucking psyched with me.
Michael Jamin:
It's so interesting because usually they'll try to keep, you're the star of this movie. Usually they try to keep that, they try to hide their disdain from actors. They don't say it in front of their face. It was
Steve Lemme:
A big deal and it caused massive shock waves and a shit storm then people had to fucking deal with while I sat there telling jokes. In Vermont,
Michael Jamin:
That's always the worst when you're, yeah, you have to wait through something. I know that feeling terrible. I've been there before. I
Steve Lemme:
Was sick. I was sick about
Michael Jamin:
It. Yeah, sick. Yeah, exactly.
Steve Lemme:
And mad at myself. How could I be so stupid? The whole thing?
Michael Jamin:
Did you confront that guy and say, Hey, you're a dick.
Steve Lemme:
No, I wanted to fucking die. I wanted the whole thing to die.
But the funny thing was is that then the next internal broken lizard conversation was that because some guys were psyched that I had gotten it out there and the studio was psyched because fucking, it was massive. It was a massive announcement that got all those views and so was then the guys that were kind of mad about it were like, well, don't feel like you did the right thing here. What you did was wrong was like, I know what I did was wrong. I'll never do it again. They're like, so don't feel justified. I'm like, I know, but then guys are looking at each other. But it is pretty fucking sweet. And I definitely did the wrong thing and I would not advise that to anybody.
Michael Jamin:
Funny. Well, that's so interesting.
Steve Lemme:
It was an accident. It was an accident.
Michael Jamin:
Happy accident.
Steve Lemme:
It was a stupid mistake.
Michael Jamin:
I have to, this whole thing is that's what I love about you. You're just this open book and you tell, I feel like I get an education at the Hollywood from what you guys do. But tell me this though, as I've taken an hour of your time and you've been very gracious, but as you're, now that you're a showrunner for four Seasons now, and you obviously do a lot of hiring, I got a lot of people who listening to this podcast, sparring writers, what do you look for in a script? What do you look for in a new writer? All that stuff.
Steve Lemme:
So it's an interesting question for right now, because over the last, when we started with Tacoma, it was really at the beginning. Maybe it wasn't the beginning, but for me as a show runner, when we were putting together the writer's room, diversity was the first and most important thing that we were being told that we had to
Michael Jamin:
From the studio,
Steve Lemme:
The network in the studio to incorporate into the writer's room. And it was women, people of color across the board, everything
You need to do this, which was fine. What I found was that then it used to be that I could, when we had a production deal at Warner Brothers for many years, and it's like you receive these movie scripts that were R-rated comedies and you were looking at, because that's what we were doing and we were going to be producing for other people. So it was like you just get every R-rated comedy sent your way. And so now, because of the diversity thing, we were receiving all kinds of scripts from all kinds of writers, from all kinds of backgrounds. And so it's like I couldn't receive a script from a Korean American woman, girl, young lady, of either whatever her sexuality was, and that experience would be reflected in the script,
Which is not something I could relate to. So what I began to look for was the jokes inside the script, where before I didn't really, I could tell jokes and stuff, but I was just looking at the whole thing. Do I like the whole idea and stuff in terms of the scripts I started being sent, they weren't ideas that I could particularly relate to unless it was like, okay, you're the son of an immigrant who's going to a private school where they are out of their element. Okay, that I can relate to. But it was in any script I started to look for what's the type of joke they're telling? Is it a more highbrow joke? Are there a bunch of some dumb jokes? Is it word play? What's the type of humor here? And so that's what I started to look for in terms of the writing material.
And then I found when I focused on that actually, but the plot of the script didn't matter at all. It was like, can they tell a story and are the jokes that they're setting up and paying off the type of jokes that I think will work for our show type of jokes, I will. Because it or not, everybody's got a style of humor. And if you're not telling the kind of jokes that I like to tell, it's I'm just not going to funny. And I can't hire you because in the writer's room, everything you're saying, I'm going to be like, it's dead air between us. I don't know. We're not on the same page. So I started to realize I could just look for the type of sense of humor and then nothing else really mattered. So I look for the type of jokes. I like to know that they can tell a story from beginning, middle, and end.
And then the other thing is bring the person in. You find those scripts that you like. And then now we're going to do the zoom meeting. And I'll tell you what, if you're the first person I meet, you got the job, got the job. No, but in this case, and as we proceeded through each season, you started to realize that you actually, you do want to meet everybody, but then it becomes a personality thing. Can we riff with each other? And again, it's like it's not so much where you're from or who you are, what you represent. Can you and I have a conversation and have a funny conversation? That's what we look for too. Because as you know, it's like we're 17 weeks in a writer's room together. And the first few seasons we were in the room, and then the last couple of seasons we've been on Zoom. But in collaboration, sometimes there are disagreements and it's like we have to each other. We have to live with each other for 17 weeks, and I have to read your material and you have to accept my criticisms and ideas. And you have to my ideas. Because the truth is, if we're having a disagreement on something, I know who's going to win the argument.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. People don't realize that.
Steve Lemme:
Yeah.
Michael Jamin:
Young writers often don't realize that the winner of the argument has already been decided. And that person sitting at the end of the table,
Steve Lemme:
I want to hear you defend your idea, but what I don't want, number one, what I don't want is for you to interrupt me a lot. What I don't want is for you to get mad. If I'm not taking your idea. Also, it's my show. Forget that it's my show. I'm the one whose responsibility is, if my joke sucks, that's my fucking problem.
Michael Jamin:
Yours.
Steve Lemme:
Nobody's going to say, wait a second, that joke sucked. Lemme see who wrote this episode. Oh, it's that person. I'm not going to hire them. Doesn't work that way. So like the personality is important,
Michael Jamin:
Right? Sure.
Steve Lemme:
And that's it for us. It's also like we want to grow the family, and we've always wanted to grow the family since
Michael Jamin:
What does that mean?
Steve Lemme:
It means, since we made Puddle Cruiser, our first movie that we made before Super Troopers, we have people that worked on that crew. And if you do a good job and you're cool, you're getting the job the next time. And we're going to also certainly getting our start in the movies, we were always on location, so we'd hang out afterwards and socialize,
And that's important. And you're having laughs. And then it's like, fuck, I love you. I love you too. And then you're hanging out socially outside of work. And then it's like we're friends. And it's like, because I actually believe that if think I think about my best friends, it's my friends from high school, I went to two high schools. So it's my friends from both those high schools and then it's my friends from college and then my friends from waiting tables. And then it's the people that you, I think friendships are made when you have to hang out with people because left to my own devices, I'm not fucking hanging out with anybody. I want to be with my family, but if I have to hang out, if you call me up or let's go get a beer, I'm in.
Michael Jamin:
Right? You're in. Problem is you live too far away.
Steve Lemme:
The problem is you live too far away.
Michael Jamin:
No, honestly, you live far away. You both live very far away. So I, that's not say no, we're closer to Hollywood than you are. You're not. You're closer to Oxnard.
Steve Lemme:
I know. I know. We're so far out. We're so
Michael Jamin:
Far. If Hollywood were an Oxnard, then yeah, then I would live farther. You live far.
Steve Lemme:
I accept it. I accept it. But anyway, it's like what's with our Tacoma family? That's why I say it's like if you're cool and you can get the job done, then the relationship will just continue. And then when the relationship continues, then people become friends and the family grows. And then it's like, as you know, it's like we sold this show and then we were like, well, we want some guys to be the showrunners who've worked in animation. And I'm like, we got the guys.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. It's funny when I tell that story and you guys, Hey, you want to do this project? I remember saying, yeah, absolutely. And then you're like, do you want to hear the idea? It doesn't matter. I just like working with you guys. It doesn't matter. That's what it was. Sure. I like working with you. It's fun.
Steve Lemme:
Well, we do have a good time. And it's funny because I'm always, I even remember those first two seasons where we were in the writer's room together. I would always come, skulking you guys were, we had never done TV before or showrunner. So they were like, you do have to, your first hires have to be people with show running experience. You need to be mentored. And so that was you guys. And so I would always come pretty frequently. I feel like I came skulking around your offices after the writer's day had finished, you actually were usually out the door.
Michael Jamin:
Oh, that's the first rule that you never learned. When the boss says you're free, you fucking run. You run. Because then they'll come in with more work. You're already at the elevator in the car,
Steve Lemme:
So you were always gone. But I would come back and talk to Seaver a lot, and I would give him more work, but I'd be like, what do you think about this? And pick his brain. Sometimes it's like, and I've felt it with you guys before. The favorite one that Kevin and I sort of talk about is the pickleball episode that you guys were, you guys came with a pretty out there idea, which was,
Michael Jamin:
Is it our idea? I thought it was your idea. Pickleball.
Steve Lemme:
No, no. The pickleball was our idea. But you guys pitched and we outlined it, but you guys came back and pitched doing it like a 30 for 30.
Michael Jamin:
Oh, right. And
Steve Lemme:
Doing an alternative take on it where it was told in the frozen tundra, that kind of thing.
And I was the one who poo-pooed that and was like, I think we should just tell a straight story. It made me nervous and I just wanted to stick to the guns. And I even remember soda was like, because people really liked that original fresh take on it. But I was scared of it. I liked it too, but I was scared of it. And I always felt bad when I would shoot down. Somebody's a big idea. Well see. And see was like, nah, fuck that. Who caress? We are here to do your, we don't fucking care. Seabert made it very clear. You guys don't fucking care.
Michael Jamin:
Well, it's not that we don't care. It's not a we're on a fight. We're here to help you make your show. That's it. Right.
Steve Lemme:
Which goes back to the young writers thing. We've had some young writers in the room that you've been by, and they can be difficult because they fight. They're arguing with you, and we're nice showrunners. You are for sure you showrunners who would fucking fire them or bite their head off at the very
Michael Jamin:
Least. Yes, yes. Yeah. And I say that to you all the time. You saw the show. It's your vision. We're here to help you make your vision. That's it. It doesn't make like I'm right or you're wrong. It doesn't your show. That's it. And who's to say that my version is better? I don't know. It's just the version. I think it's better. It doesn't mean anyone else thinks it's better.
Steve Lemme:
Yeah. Well, nobody really knows. And I remember seeing this thing, what was it? Was it talking, talking funny? Was it like Seinfeld and Chris Rock?
Michael Jamin:
Yeah.
Steve Lemme:
And I'm doing my concentration phase and Ricky ve, I'm blanking on the fourth, but Seinfeld was like,
Michael Jamin:
Yeah,
Steve Lemme:
It's crazy. When you, was it Louis ck?
Michael Jamin:
It might've been Louis ck.
Steve Lemme:
Yeah, it was
Michael Jamin:
The biggest, right? Was it Dave Chappelle? Or if he was not in
Steve Lemme:
That? It wasn't Chappelle. It wasn't Chappelle. But Seinfeld was like, I go into these network meetings and he's like, lemme tell you something about stand of comedy. You just stand a comedy. You don't know if something is, you might think something is hysterical, but I'll tell you what the audience is actually going to let you know if it's funny.
And so the audience is half of it. And I think every comedian has that story of the joke that they thought was awesome, and they went out there and delivered it and it bombed. They're like, well, it's not funny. Or The way I did it isn't funny. And maybe I can try to improve on it then It's still not funny. But it's like for them, the executives to be like, we don't like this joke. We want you to do this is absurd. Like, well, I'm technically the funny one. And what you don't realize is that you can't tell me something is funny, right? Because nobody knows if something's funny. So you might as well trust me. And so it's the same way with running a show. It's like I could be wrong. In fact, there's a very good chance that I'm wrong, but it doesn't matter in this case.
Michael Jamin:
But I'll say as showrunners, you guys are very prepared. You come with your ideas and it was a pleasure. I mean, honestly, those four years, my complaint was more, I want to do more. That's my only complaint.
Steve Lemme:
But I think that's an interesting thing too, is that we learned that our way of doing things was actually not the norm.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. It still wasn't. Yeah, because even in the end, you still took, I'd say 90% of our advice and the other 10% did it your way, which is fine.
Steve Lemme:
Yeah. But I always found it interesting, we try to do it that way, that you talked about on some of those shows where it's like you have the
Michael Jamin:
Rewrite on the screen and the board
Steve Lemme:
Screen, the screen screen, and everybody's going through the script, line by line and pitching things. And it's like, to me and to Kevin, it was like, that's an incredibly slow way of doing things.
Michael Jamin:
Well, it's only so far as you decide this line doesn't work for me. That's all pitch on this line. So you decide what is working, what isn't working
Steve Lemme:
Right, and
Michael Jamin:
Then I second guess you and I go, no, you're wrong.
Steve Lemme:
And then
Michael Jamin:
It all falls apart.
Steve Lemme:
Yeah. Then it's over. But I also wonder if that's because we didn't have the luxury of time ever.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Right. There's definitely
Steve Lemme:
That, and part of that is because acting in the show. Yeah. I think what a lot of people don't realize is, so network television, half hour shows are what, 23 episodes, and those are showrunners and writers that are just tucked away writing a show, and that writing is often going on while filming is happening and the season scripts aren't even finished. Whereas with us, we're acting in the show and we have to have total control over the script. So we have to be finished with the scripts before we start
Michael Jamin:
And directing exhausting. When I visit on set, I'm exhausted for all you guys here acting and memorizing and then directing Jesus.
Steve Lemme:
I get tired. My least favorite part is directing myself as an actor. It's the only thing I don't like about directing is acting at the same time.
Michael Jamin:
But you don't mind directing if you're not in the scene.
Steve Lemme:
I enjoy it. If I don't have to act at all, then it's pretty enjoyable to sit back and because then you can
Michael Jamin:
And direct really because just a prep and making sure you got the right cameras and the coverage, I don't know. It's very stressful,
Steve Lemme:
But that's tiring. But then it's as one of the lead characters in the show, it's like I have to go home and I have to learn lines. You actually have to know your lines better because a lot of the other actors don't know their lines very well. And they're learning while we're rehearsing. And that's just an act of survival thing. You're doing eight pages of dialogue a day. It's hard to memorize that all each
Michael Jamin:
Day. Yeah, it's very hard. It's very
Steve Lemme:
Hard. But when you're saying it and you're up on your feet with the other actors, then it's actually becomes really easy to remember. And then you're getting so many wax at it. But after a day of shooting to go home and then sit down and study your lines is exhausting. As a director, you have to do that more because you don't have time to rehearse. You just have to know
Michael Jamin:
You guys are hardworking, you really are. Or hardworking guys a hard
Steve Lemme:
Job.
Michael Jamin:
And if people don't realize it, it's very hard.
Steve Lemme:
But it's a fun job and it's the people around you that make it fun.
Michael Jamin:
You might be right. What advice do you have before we sign off for aspiring actors or writers today? This year? I don't know, as opposed to 10 years ago.
Steve Lemme:
Well, it's the same as it was 10 years ago. Stop. I think it can be depressing sometimes to hear, but if you look at Kevin and me, like I said early on, it's like no one has ever handed us anything.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, right.
Steve Lemme:
Everything we've ever gotten, we've gotten for ourselves. Even now it's like our TV show's probably going to be canceled and not because we did anything wrong, we've actually crushed it and had great ratings. But the network
Michael Jamin:
Network is gone.
Steve Lemme:
It's going away. They're actually trying to kill the networks, so, which makes no sense, but it's happening because everyone thinks streaming is where it's at. No one wants free TV apparently, and they have 90 million viewers, but they want them all to go someplace else. And so it's like take that as the example of how the industry works and it is you. It's you against them, and you're going to have to prove yourself. But also, none of the work goes to waste. Even if you write a script and it sucks. You're learning how to write. Even if you write a script and it doesn't sell, there might be some jokes in there that you can use for something else. Or if you look at quasi, we wrote that script 20 years ago, didn't know when it would ever get made, and 20 years later, we got it made. The work is never wasted. Something about writing and acting and directing is that you're always learning. I haven't stopped learning my craft since I started it. And also the other piece of advice that I've given over the last 10 years is you should also, besides just sticking with it, you should actually make stuff. Because that's essentially what we did. We were independent filmmakers and we just raised money and made it. And now that's more easy than it ever was. That's easier than it ever
Michael Jamin:
Was. Is it raising money because of the internet?
Steve Lemme:
Well, but no, but I mean, sure you could, but it's like you used to pay for a camera, now you have cell phones and you have cheap phones, and you used to film used to be the most expensive thing there was. Now you can shoot on digital video and it's like we didn't even call cut anymore. And editing. You can edit on your computer and you can market can market on Instagram and TikTok, put little clips of your thing. People like it. Download the whole thing. It's like just make stuff. Make stuff.
Michael Jamin:
Excellent advice. Steve Lemme, thank you for joining me here on episode 100. My pleasure. You're a great guest. I got to say thank you. Way better than I thought you would turn out to be. I know you got me to say stuff. I don't know how you did it. I didn't get you to cry. I usually try to get people to cry. You try. Thank you so much. All right, everyone. Another great episode. I thought for more, keep following and that's it. Keep listening. Thanks so much. Keep writing.
Phil Hudson:
This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar@michaeljamin.com slash webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHundson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing. I.
On this week's episode, I discuss the differences between writing for TV versus film and the differences in the development phases. We also go into ways to create your own material and what to really focus on. Tune in for much more!
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Michael Jamin:
If you write something great, the actors will come out of the word work to be in it, and you don't even have to pay 'em because they're getting footage and they're also being involved in something that could be really great and could blow up and could make their careers. But if the script's no good, you're going to have to beg 'em to do it because what's in it for them other than bad footage that they can't use? It's
Listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.
Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear this. I'm here with Phil Hudson again. Hello, Phil.
Phil Hudson:
Hey everybody. Good to be back.
Michael Jamin:
Hello, everybody. Today we're going to talk about something, well, something I think is very important. How about that? The question is, should you write for film or tv? I think a lot of people, at least from social media when they leave comments, I think a lot of people really aspire to be film writers because they have their story and maybe they think it's more prestigious. Maybe they like the idea of going to walking down a red carpet and seeing their work on a large screen. And so I just thought I talked to you about my feelings about film versus TV and why I greatly prefer working in television. And I think anybody who works in film is crazy. So it's not that they're crazy, but it's just like, wow. I see a lot of advantages for working in film. And to be clear, I am a TV writer, but I have sold a couple of movies and after selling those movies I was like, I don't want to do that again. I'd rather work in television, but I definitely see the appeal that people have. So I thought I may shed a little light on what my perspective is. That sounds good with you, Phil.
Phil Hudson:
I think this is an exciting topic and we were just talking before we started recording, the industry's changed even since I started studying this craft. Seriously, back then there was a viable feature market and it seems like it's gone the wayside, and I've seen the transition over the last decade with filmmakers and screenwriters coming into tv. I think because the money's better, there's more work, there's more creative freedom, and I'm sure you'll talk about it, but there's that saying of the director runs the film set and the writer runs the TV set.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, if you want creative control, we have lots to talk about, but if it's creative control that you want, then you want to be in TV because the writer's in charge. If you want to be in charge in a film, then the director's in charge. Often the writer's not even invited to set. The writer has no say that will be rewritten. The director might hire multiple writers to rewrite. So if you think if it's about your vision, unless you are shooting yourself, forget it. You are really an afterthought. And like you said, they are making far fewer movies now than they were even 15, 20 years ago, probably a third as many. And when you look at the titles being released, you got a lot of remakes. You got a lot of sequels, you got a lot of reboots. Yeah, I mean, so they're making
Phil Hudson:
Another, it's largely IP based material too. So it's other books that have blown up and they buy the rights to that. They then make that.
Michael Jamin:
So it is because they're easier to market, which is why you have Fast and The Furious 13, everyone knows that and it's why you have it, Indiana Jones five, because everyone knows it's just easier to market. And even Barbie, I don't know if it's Greta Go's Dream to make, when she was approached to write Barbie, she's probably Barbie, do I have to Barbie? What about my original idea? So obviously she wrote the Barbie movie and turned it into something very unique and special. But I can't imagine as a child, she grew up thinking, I want to write a movie about Barbie. They came to her with an offer and she turned into something unique and creative, but I don't think she came, maybe I shouldn't speak, but I can't imagine she brought the Barbie idea to them. I think they had to move the ip and yeah,
Phil Hudson:
I'm certain that's the case, but even then because of the success of Barbie, now Mattel is talking about creating their own cinematic universe,
Michael Jamin:
Right? Right. So get ready for more gi whatever it is. I don't know. Is that your dream? Now, indie filmmaking, by the way, is a completely different topic. Maybe we can brush on it a little. My area of expertise is definitely not independent filmmaking, but that's a whole different,
Phil Hudson:
But that's what I went to film school for and that's the Sundance world that I kind of been in. So I'm familiar with that. And there's a bit of a merge there. And we can talk about tko. Waititi is a really great example of that because he came out of the indie film world. He was a Sundance kid, and then he started doing more prolific stuff. And while I was touring for quasi handling social media for the broken lizard guys, that's one of the conversations we had with their, one of the Searchlight VPs of publicity. And she was like, yeah, Tika, he does one for us, we do one for him. You do Thor, you want to do Thor? Awesome. We'll make invisible Hitler. And it's a way for them to incentivize. But I would say Clin Eastwood, I would say even look at Christopher Nolan, that's the way it works. You get this deal at these big studios, I'll make your billion dollar film, and then they let you make the film you want to make, and one is going to make a ton of money, may win some awards, the other one's going to win some awards because they have the talent.
Michael Jamin:
So if it's your aspiration for me, just the thought of working film, you go, okay, I'll write a film and maybe I can sell it. But then, okay, then how many times are you going to sell a, it is hard to sustain that career. Whereas in television, oh, I know there's a TV show and maybe they have whatever, 10 or 13 episodes a season that sounds like you can make a living that sounds like you're working more steadily. And when I broke in, by the way, it's 22 episodes, so I was like, oh, okay, these people work all the time. And for 10 seasons, that sounds to me that was the lure of a steady paycheck was in television, maybe less so today, but certainly more so than being a filmmaker.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, that's fascinating. One thing that's standing out to me from this conversation really just echoes what you've been saying throughout the history of the podcast, and we're approaching two years of this podcast, and that is you have to get out and do it yourself. Nobody's going to do it for you. You can't rely on anybody else. You have to get up and do it. And even the gre Gerwig, the Tiger Boy, tee Tees, they had a name for themselves as filmmakers before the big studio came with the big bag of money. They were the value, and that's where they came to take advantage of them, right? Yeah. Greta Gerwig has the way to make her film stand out in her way and her style, and that's why it's a big hit. I don't think it's largely because it's Barbie, it's because of what she did with Barbie that made it work. But that's something she has honed and developed over years and years and years of hard work before she hit it big.
Michael Jamin:
And also my friend Chrissy Stratton, who I'm going to have back on the podcast at some point, we had her run before. So I met her on King of the Hill. She's a writer on King of the Hill. But then she went on to a very long career, almost as long as mine, working in various TV shows. She might be just one or two years behind me, pretty much equal. And she works all the time in tv, but she had this film that she's been dreaming about for whatever, 10 or 15 years and then decided, you know what? I'm just going to make a short. And so on her own dime. And she raised the money. She's a successful TV writer, but in film, she's the no one. So she started from scratch and she called in a lot of favors and shot a movie on by raising her own money, real low budget.
And we'll talk more about this journey and why she's doing it, but it's not like, even though she's big in tv, she's a no one in film. So it's kind of a level playing field. And one of the thing, well, I know I'm jumping around, but I just so you're aware, as I mentioned about creative control in film, well, lemme tell you about the experiences that I went through. So my writing partner and I, we wrote a writing sample, a feature sample. I was dreaming it was going to get sold, but he was like, it's not going to get sold, whatever. But I was like, maybe it will. We wrote a sample, our agent shopped it around, no one bought it as predicted, but there was a producer who was very interested in working. He's like, this is great. We can't it, but let's try coming up with some ideas together and sell those.
And so we worked with this producer and we wound up selling two more ideas, but every step of the way, it was kind of exhausting. We're coming up with ideas, we're writing drafts, we're giving it to him. He's got notes we're not getting, and you're doing, it's called free revisions. You're doing notes after notes. We sold it to the studio, but the producer is basically the gate. So until the producer's happy with the draft, the studio will never see it. And so this is what free revisions is. So you're doing constant rewrites for the producer.
Phil Hudson:
This is a big deal for the W G A, by the way. It's a very big deal. It's part of the strike too.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. I don't know what's going to obviously happen with it. And you're doing a lot of free work, which you're not getting paid obviously, and the studio's not seeing any of it. And then you get finally the producer's happy, you give it to the studio and then the studio has notes and then, okay, now you're again. So they say, do a revision. And again, you go back, you start doing the revision, you've turned into the producer and the producer's like, eh, I don't think it's good enough fellas. I need to do more work and more work. And then finally you turn that revision to the studio. I was at one point producer who I liked quite a bit, really good guy, but he also had development people working under him. So at one point his development person left, he brought in a new one, and now this new person has a new direction that we're going, oh my God.
It was like, this is a never ending hell. That's how I felt. It's just a never ending hell because you have to please them. And I understand this is how the game is played, but I was like in tv, it doesn't work this way in tv, if I'm a writer on staff, I turn in my draft to the showrunner. If I'm not the showrunner, the showrunner has notes, great. Turn in another draft, we're done. Shoot, we're going to shoot it. And of course the network will have notes, but it's so much more streamlined because you have a timetable, we have to shoot this thing on Friday, so you can't keep this up in development hell for a year, which is what happens if you're doing film. You could be in hell forever on this. I was like, work done. And that's
Phil Hudson:
The term too. It's development health, what you said. That's an industry term for what that is.
Michael Jamin:
And the money, in terms of the money, I got paid way more in TV than I do in film. So
Phil Hudson:
That's what I was about to say. I just said, we talked about the podcast, that experience I had where that guy signed the script, signed the contract to write a script for that thing, and it kind of fizzled out, but the numbers on it were, it's like $160,000 to write a screenplay. Well, the average I understand is about six months to go through the whole process to write a script more than that. But then you have the notes and you have the feedback and you got all that stuff. So you're going to do one, maybe two of those a year. Well, you can go get an M B A and then go get a six figure paycheck that's going to pay you more than that. And
Michael Jamin:
Just so you know, the movie's not getting made and it has nothing to do with you or it's just like it's a miracle movies. It's a miracle when a movie gets made. So if you want to see your work on the screen, even if it's been rewritten to death, forget it. Most movies just do not get made. So you're okay, but you used to make a good living writing movies that never got made. Maybe it's less so now because they're making because they're buying fewer. But back in the day, you could be a very successful screenwriter and never have a word of yours onscreen. But in TV it's different.
Phil Hudson:
One question that comes to mind for me, Michael, when you talk about free revisions and development, hell, you also advocate that writers write and they write for free. And if you don't want to write for free, don't do this because that's what this job looks like.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
Right. What's the difference between the experience with the free revisions and the notes with the producer versus your definition of free writing?
Michael Jamin:
I mean, we're talking about two things. We're talking about improving your craft to write, to learn how to write. And so a lot of people just write one script and they think, well, I'm going to sell it and I'm done. Give me a paycheck. And my point is then you put it down and write another one and then write another one. And you'll notice that script number five is vastly better than script number one simply because you're getting better at writing. But the free revisions I'm talking about for these producers, when you become a professional at some point, I got to take home money. This is not a hobby for me. This is how I make my living. So I just didn't enjoy the process. I just thought like, ugh, it is no fun. It takes the joy out of it.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, no kidding. So we have to write. We have to write. That's part of writing. Being a writer is writing. But what the WGA is fighting for is that writers should be paid for all of the professional rioting where other people are making money off of the sweat of their back. They're taking advantage of that situation because a bit of a power dynamic there where the producer has control and obviously they want to maintain their relationship and they want to make it as good as they can be. So I'm not saying it's a negative or a nefarious approach to it, but it's still a writers are sitting there not getting paid.
Michael Jamin:
I understand the producers are protecting their brand and they have a closer relationship with the studio. I get it. But they're not the ones doing all that work for free. So I just like, this is not appealing to me. I'd much rather work in television. Like I said, you have more creative control. You're onset. And again, in features, what would've happened had these two features of ours been made. It didn't come to this and I didn't expect it to, but we sold two features and at both times we're finally done. We give both final drafts to the studio. The studio is happy with it. The studio executive were working with happy. They'd given all our notes and revisions. They were very happy with the script. Now they give it to their boss who has the green light, they have the power to green light. And the boss reads it over the weekend, not interested.
It was like, it's over. It's it. It was almost on a whim. Nah, what else you got? And it's like there's no argument. There's no more convincing them, it's dead because they just don't want to make that movie. And often they don't want to make that movie simply because the movie that did well that weekend was an action movie and your movie's a comedy and they want to make more action movies now, or it's as simple as that. Or someone put out a comedy movie that weekend that bombed and forget it. We're not doing comedies anymore. And so it could have nothing to do with the quality of what you wrote. This is what the marketplace suddenly changed and now it's dead. So this is how it is.
Unless you are making your own movie. And if you make your own movie, that's great, but do it on a dime. On a dime. I say I had a nice conversation with someone, someone asked me to, it was a couple of days ago, they wanted to book some time with me for a consultation, which I occasionally do. And he really nice guy, but he had self-financed some projects and I was like, you spent too much money on that. Don't put so much money into your own projects in the beginning until you really get spend a couple thousand. That's what you can do it on. That's what I recommend.
Phil Hudson:
And in the indie film side of things, the goal is to not spend your money. It is actually to find investors. And the question is, why would people invest in an indie film maker who's made no money? A lot of people are looking for tax write-offs and they want to be involved in Hollywood. They want to feel like they are producing being part of that because they probably have that desire, that dream, and they chased the paycheck rather than their art. And so now that they've got the money, they would rather invest in another artist to be a part of that. And so my friend's dad is just this awesome guy, and he just texted me out of the blue two years ago and he had a bunch of stocks vest and he cashed out and he was like, Hey man, if you ever have something you want to make, let me know. I've got some cash lying around. I'd love to put towards that.
Michael Jamin:
Oh wow.
Phil Hudson:
But that comes out of a relationship of trust that I have with the guy. It also
Michael Jamin:
Is, and it might come with strings attached. It may
Phil Hudson:
Be, and it probably will,
Michael Jamin:
It may be, and this is not how it works in TV and tv. So in film you might have a ton of executive producers because they help chip in for 5,000 bucks. You can become an executive producer of my movie. People do that and TV doesn't work that way. Tv, that's all financed by the studio. So it's not that kind of model. But in film, you write a check for 5,000, or if you write a bigger check for 50,000 and the person says, I'll give you 50,000 if you cast my daughter as the lead, or if you make these changes to the script, do you want to do it or not? That's up to you. How much do you want that money?
Phil Hudson:
I think that's really where the question of art versus craft comes into play, because in that situation it might be a little bit more art, it might be a little bit more of your decision. Well, that's going to ruin my vision for what I have or destroy the theme of this piece, and I'm doing it myself because it is an expression of myself, and that is art. And you might turn down the money out of integrity for the art there, but you might also take the paycheck because you've got kids who need diapers,
Michael Jamin:
Right? And so some people, sometimes people are very naive about the whole thing and they're like, you writers suck, or This is the garbage. Do you know how hard it's to get something made? And do you understand that I also need to make money?
Phil Hudson:
Oh man, we do the webinars every month and we do, we started to do this v i p q and A after, and we were testing it out, but we had a member of your group she joined and she was telling us about how she has made two or three indie films and she had put up this money and she was going to shoot it in the forest. And the film, the films that got shut down because of wildcat or a cougar, like a mountain lion or something, came in and ruined the whole thing. None of the actors want to come back. And she knew this was a thing that could happen. And so she was asking the question about hobbling together, her footage to make something producible. And it's just heartbreaking because a good story, you can't really do that. The story should mean something.
And that's someone who's in there doing it. I think they're doing it on their own dime, and that's just heartbreaking to hear. But I've got other experience where my buddy Rich, he's produced a bunch of any stuff. He's done stuff with Michael Madson, done some stuff with major players, knows a bunch of people, and he was telling me about this film that he was working on for years and years and years. And they shot the whole film and then it got locked down in post because one of the executive producers who wrote the check wouldn't sign off on the final cut. And so it could get
Michael Jamin:
Final cut
Phil Hudson:
And it got stuck and they were arguments and they had to work through and it was like five years. And the end result they got out of it was a worst film because the producer had too much say and wanted edits. So understanding story structure, you look at it, it is a hobbled together piece of crap that has a couple big names in it,
Michael Jamin:
Right? Yeah. I don't even think you need, well, I don't want to talk about big names, but, and I felt bad for this woman in the v I b talk. But here's the thing, I also think you need to figure, be cautious on how producible is this movie you want to make. You didn't have to do a movie, write a movie that take place in the mountains. You could have written a movie that takes place in someone's apartment, and if you think I'm nuts, go watch the whale, which takes place in someone's crappy apartment and was amazing and beautiful because their writing was beautiful and the acting matched it, but the set was ugly. And anyone could have shot that in their own apartment. And that's on you as the writer is like, you don't have to write a movie. I would be cautious about writing anything with kids, because kids are really hard to have on set first of legally. You need to have tutors, you want to bend the rules. Kids can only work a certain amount of hours. And what you do on your independent film, that's your business, but to be up and up, that's the truth. And kids, they get tired, they lose focus, and they want to horse around. So I would be careful about having kids. I'd be careful about doing anything that requires characters getting wet because costume changes are bitch, when you're wet and at exterior locations, the same thing. Back noise, street noise, people being disruptive, a leaf blower.
But you can write something very compelling in a controlled set where you don't have to worry about any of this stuff as long as the writing is good. It's all about the writing.
Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.
Phil Hudson:
I'm having a flashback. So my thesis film that I did, I took a crew, we rented a van, we took our equipment, we drove to Utah, negotiated all these things because of relationships. I had to get it cheap, shooting in friends' houses, borrowing a friend's truck, doing all of these things. Flew in a couple of indie actors from LA to be in my project. And while we were going through, you just start getting hit with every single thing you have planned, start shifting based off of, there's cloud cover now because you're outside, it's starting to snow. Lots of beautiful things happen. Like we're shooting on a pump jack, which an oil deck, an oil derrick is, what you think about 'em is pump jacks that big swinging arm pump. It's a training school that agreed to let us shoot on theirs that was donated. And there's moving in the background, makes the production value go through the roof, what we had.
But then at the same time, while we're driving, a deer jumps out and my friend's truck when my actor's driving hits the deer, and then we're driving the next day to go to the set to shoot the exteriors. And we need that truck. And then it blows part of the engine and we can't use the truck anymore. And I'm rewriting on the fly and my friend's daughter is casting this role using their house, and she's just this sweet little girl and she has two lines and she gets stage fright and she can't do it. And so we have to put her sister in who's too young. And so I have to scrap those lines and rethink how do I get this emotional moment across? And then at the end, when we're done filming, the little girl comes up and says, I'm ready now.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, great.
Phil Hudson:
And they're heartbreaking. Heartbreaking because we're done.
Michael Jamin:
And that said, whatever, I would take inventory if you decide to do this Indio thing, because as a way of getting discovered, as a way of breaking in, which is great. I would just take inventory of what you have that's in your control. If you're a truck driver and you have a Mack truck, alright, maybe you're shooting the truck. I mean, that's an interesting set.
Phil Hudson:
Well, it's your life that ties in the right what you know, you can add reality veracity to that.
Michael Jamin:
If you have a storage locker, the same thing. If you're allowed to shoot there, you're probably not. But what little you have could be interesting. You don't think it's interesting because it's your life, but we think it's interesting. We don't live your life.
Phil Hudson:
While you were talking, I was just thinking of Robert Rodriguez, who's arguably one of the biggest directors on the planet. And he came from this in world where he did on mariachi. He documents all of this in a great book, the Rebel Without a Crew. And he donated his body to science to fund it. And he went to the small town in Mexico. He went in for clinical trials for a, to get the money, borrowed a camera that didn't have audio. Went to a town in Mexico where he would summer, borrowed friends and family and a best friend to play the roles, did the whole thing. And then stayed up at night in an editing bay at a local TV station to edit his film and did it and blew up because he thought, and all he wanted to do was to sell it to a Spanish language channel and ended up selling it to Sony or whoever, Sony Columbia or something.
Michael Jamin:
And now you can make it for a fraction. You could edit it all on your laptop, you can
Phil Hudson:
Edit it on your phone. You shoot the whole thing on your
Michael Jamin:
Phone.
Phil Hudson:
But the story was good. Why did it sell? Why was it a big deal? It's because he knew how to tell a compelling story, and he just used what he had to do that
Michael Jamin:
Job. So we're in agreement here. If you want to do an indie film, great. Just don't spend a lot of money. Also, you don't have, if you write something great, the actors will come out of the word work to be in it, and you don't even have to pay 'em because they're getting footage and they're also being involved in something that could be really great and could blow up and could make their careers. But if the script's no good, you're going to have to beg 'em to do it, because what's in it for them other than bad footage that they can't use?
Phil Hudson:
I dove headfirst into this stuff when I was first starting, and I would write a script, do one version of it, one draft, and then I would shoot it, do a casting call. People would show up, they'd want to be in it. We'd be on set. And they'd very quickly realized I had no idea what I was doing and I didn't, but I just had the gumption to make it happen. And I remember my lead calling me out one time or shooting this shot, and he's like, dude, what are you doing? We're here. You're not even using light to help add subtext and value. And he's talking about how when you're walking up the stairs, well, if you shot it this way through here, there's a cage and a shadow being cast on my face and emotionally, my character's going through this inner turmoil with his relationship and there's all this.
And I was like, I have no idea what you're talking about, because I had no clue. And I wasted time and energy and money doing it, and I was a valuable learning experience for me, and I got that lesson out of it. So yeah, your point, do it as cheap as you can because learning, you're just learning. And that is the school of hard knocks, not the school of theory and philosophy. It's get it done. You're going to learn. You're going to make a lot of mistakes. You're not going to sell the first thing. It's probably not going to win any awards. And if you do, awesome, you did it now, but you're most likely not. And that's okay. It's reps, reps, reps, reps.
Michael Jamin:
Yes. And I have a lot of respect for people who do it. And even if they come up with something terrible and crappy, well, guess what? They did it. Guess what? They put a lot of energy and work into something and their next piece will hopefully be better. And most people just dream of it. And most people will just say, here's my script. Make my dream come true. But the other people say, here's my script. I'm going to make my dream come true. And it may take long, a long process, but it's putting the work in so good for them.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. My first class I went in, I had some credit transfer credits from when I was first in college. So when I went to film school, I was up, maybe I was basically a year ahead when I got there, and I had to take a couple of freshmen film classes because they were requirements. And I remember intro to film, film 1 0 1, we're in this big IMAX theater on our campus, and Peter Grendel, our professor my age is teaching. And his big point from the first lesson was the percentage of people who say they want to be filmmakers versus the people who make films is very different. It's like 0.0001% make a film. He said, so even if you put in all the time, energy, and effort needed to make an indie film that does nothing goes nowhere, you have still done something most people will never do. But most people talk about doing, and that's something to take pride in.
Michael Jamin:
My daughter shot a little scene in college. She got a scene, a little film that someone wrote, and it was just two people. It was short. It was like three minutes of a young woman. She was the girl and a boy sitting on a staircase talking about something, and it was too short to go anywhere. But I was like, that's interesting. You could have done something. It's easy to shoot. You're just two angles and a master on a staircase. If they had spent a little more time with the script, I go, there's something there for sure. It's something compelling about a boy and a girl who are dating and whatever they were talking about. I was like, it's something small. And the writing, it's about the writing. It's not about anything else as far as, and the acting. But yeah, I mean, just as an experiment, can I write something compelling about two people on a staircase talking about something? And we've seen this stuff. Here's a good one. Mount is a good example, but in Pulp Fiction, when Samuel Jackson and Travolta in that car are talking about
Phil Hudson:
The crown royale with cheese,
Michael Jamin:
That's interesting. That's interesting. Fun dialogue. You still need a story on top of that. But it's rich, and we all remember it because, or the scene or that small little scene, if you had shot that small scene where Samuel Jackson's talking about, he's in that guy's, there's young guy's house. He breaks the first scene where there's five college kids or whatever that they're threatening. They owe them money. And Samuel Jackson's talking about he's clearly a killer, but he's reformed. He's found Jesus, and he's struggling though. He's struggling to do the right thing. If you shot that one scene and it's an apartment building, that's it. You have a couple guy on a couch and a guy and two guys holding fake guns, that one scene is very interesting and compelling. If that's your movie you made, I want to see more. And it doesn't cost a fortune to write that scene. There's no special effects, I guess in the end had some fake bullets or whatever. But that's it, that that's all you need, A thug, a street thug who's a murderer, but he found Jesus and he's trying to do the right thing. Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. That's great. That whole scene is fascinating. And that's for anybody listening, wanting to learn how to write great dialogue or understand characters. The fact that what's so interesting about that cheeseburger conversation is they are killers, and they're not talking about when we get there, we're going to shoot 'em in the face, or here's how we're going to dispose the body. They've done this so many times that this just, we can talk about why they put cheese on a burger. It's stabs quo. And the story's there because they're talking about the wife and the foot massage and all that stuff as they're standing in the hallway and it just happens and they kick the door and they know let's beat thugs. Right? But
Michael Jamin:
How easy are both those scenes? I mean, the first one's a little harder in a car, but they're both very easy in terms of shooting, that wouldn't cost neither one of those scenes cost a fortune. It's all about the writing and the acting will support the writing.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. I mean, that's Tarantino like Reservoir Dogs. It's a warehouse. It's a warehouse with some flashbacks outside. The whole thing takes you in one room,
Michael Jamin:
But even let's say reservoir drugs, which obviously was the one that really made him. But the point I'm trying to make is just write, because you don't have to write a whole movie, just write one compelling scene that promises something really on its own. You're like, I'm hooked. And maybe there's more to it.
Phil Hudson:
That ties back to your fractals podcast too, which has really stuck with me. And I think about it every time I sit down to write, when I'm structuring scenes and acts and I'm structuring my story, if you can't do a scene, well, how could you do a short, well, if you can't do a short, well, how could you do a full blown act or a TV pilot if you can't do that? Well, how can you do a two hour feature?
Michael Jamin:
We shot that episode, that podcast episode a long time, probably over a year ago, but it was called something about fractals. I think it was
Phil Hudson:
Just called fractals.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. And the point I was making is anybody who knows anything about fractals, they're patterns that repeat nature. So if you see a tree, it has a trunk in branches, but if you look at the leaf on the tree, the leaf has a trunk in branches, and then if you look at the cells, so it's about these repeating patterns. And so my point is, for movie, you have to want to write a compelling movie, right? But break down the movie into acts, and each act has to be compelling. Then break down each act into scenes, and each scene is compelling. And then each line has to be compelling. And so you're really just repeating patterns over and over, but on a larger scale. And so if you point out, if you can't write a compelling act, if you can write a compelling scene, how are you going to write a compelling act? Just start with writing a scene. That's
Phil Hudson:
It. Yeah. Write the scene, write the scene, write the scene over and over and over again. You can churn out scenes. Even if you just took a week and just focused on one scene, how much better is that going to be than taking a week and powering through 50 pages?
And I'm not advocating by the way that you shift your writing style, and it's not necessarily what you teach as the process that we do in Hollywood, and we've seen in TV rooms. What I'm saying is as a writing exercise, getting in your reps to practice the craft of writing, you're going to get faster return. Drilling. This thing, and I talk about this all the time, it's Josh Watkin's making bigger, small circles bigger. So how do you pull back and zoom in on something and focus on the detail work inside of that thing? And in Jujitsu's transitions in this, it's how do I get into a scene fast? How to get out of a scene fast? How do I display things through subtext? How do I have people say things without saying things? What's the thematic thing? What's the energy coming in? And the energy come out? That's all the detail. That's just a film condense. So focus, just do that while you're doing the other stuff.
Michael Jamin:
That's a good point. And I was going to also say, I'm guilty of this too. When I'm writing my, well, I finished my book, but when I was writing it, I'd have a scene in my mind. I wanted to get to the next scene where also some great stuff was going to happen. And then I kind of just got a little lazy in my transitions. And then when I'd read it again, I'm like, what's going on in this transition? Can I make this transition interesting? Do I have to be lazy and sloppy? Is there a goal to be found in the transition? And then I'd realize, oh, that's kind of where there's some interesting stuff is, so I'm guilty of it too. But you have to be aware. It's not just about a race, and you're not just racing to get to the next scene you are when
Phil Hudson:
We talk about enjoy the journey and enjoy the process. This is what we're talking about. You have to love doing this because it ends up getting you somewhere better than where you were before. And the other quote, I believe I've said on the podcast who really stood out to me was an interview with Kobe Bryant, and he just said that nothing he does on the court, he hasn't practiced a thousand times, right? So he's in there practicing, practicing, practicing. He shows up, and you hear this all the time in interviews with other players from the Lakers, they say that they would show up their first day and they'd want to show up early to put in the work. And Kobe Bryant was already there practicing free throws, practicing free throws.
Michael Jamin:
You're talking about the greatest player or one of the greatest players in the N B A hasty was already there, was acting as if he was a rookie who had never taken a shot in a basketball court.
Phil Hudson:
All the money, all the skills, all the fame, known name, 70 hour work weeks, just putting in the work.
Michael Jamin:
If the greatest player has to do it, why do you think you don't have to do it?
Phil Hudson:
LeBron James, he makes what? A hundred million a year off of all of his endorsement deals. I read, I think in Sports Illustrated, it's like 9 million a year goes into taking care of his body just in trainers massage therapy.
Michael Jamin:
Wow.
Phil Hudson:
Why? Because that's his tool. That's his instrument. Your tool is your keyboard or your typewriter, your pad and paper and pen, and you don't need, here's the cool thing. You can write a lot of things without needing a fancy computer or fancy software. You can just sit down and practice this with a pad of paper and a Panama napkin.
Michael Jamin:
What's your commitment to getting better at the craft? And I get why people just want to, they want fast results, but it's not a fast result kind of game. I don't know how we got here from, should you be a TV writer or a film writer?
Phil Hudson:
Well, I think we're talking about indie film, we're talking about the process of indie film versus features, but all of this relates it's skillset. And I know you talked about for you, you liked TV writing, and I think with the time we have left, I'd love to hear what are the benefits that you found in TV writing? And I think they tie directly into this, which is there's more work, there's more time to sit, and you do this more than writing
Michael Jamin:
A feature. But not only that, I feel like TV writing, being a TV writer has helped me improve my writing all around because every week, including writing novels. Including writing films, because every week you have to come up with a new story, and it's the repetitiveness, the repetition of, okay, let's break a story. This week we got to break a story. Next week, we got to break a north story next week. And constantly coming up with new stories, even though they're half hour as opposed to an hour and a half. It's that repetition that really makes you really good. And that's why I feel, and I'm not the only one who thinks this way, if you want to watch a really good comedy, you watch tv, you don't turn to film, although there are some really funny films, pound for pound, you go back to tv.
It's that action. That's where the good writers really get good. I'll see a comedy. I don't even know how many come. I tried watching one of these streamers, I'm like, oh, comedy, I'll watch this. And it's terrible. This is terrible. From some unknown, have they spent some time in a TV writer's room? They would know, no, this is not acceptable dialogue. That's not an acceptable joke. You just learn so much by being in television, I feel. And then you could go to TV or a film if you have an opportunity. But the learning ground, I feel, is in tv.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. Have you seen The Bear?
Michael Jamin:
I saw the Pilot. I haven't watched the Rest. Dude
Phil Hudson:
Blew my mind, and it feels like one of the most dramatic films, TV shows I've ever seen. It's short form. It's a comedy, it's a sitcom. It's got all the enemies for these comedy, and it makes you laugh, it makes you cry. It's all those notes, and you just look at it, and I looked up the creator and it's like, man, this guy has produced some of the greatest standup comedians in history. Chris Rock, just tons of people. And it's like, yeah, you're learning this from being around and doing the work. And then that translate into what I think is one of the best comedies on tv,
Michael Jamin:
And
Phil Hudson:
It's great.
Michael Jamin:
I got to watch it. The problem is Cynthia's already seen it, and so I got to watch it alone, make time to watch it alone.
Phil Hudson:
I get it. I'm married. I understand.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. But there it is. I hope that helps. Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
One thing I just wanted to add to this conversation was when I first got into this, the advice was really centered around, is this a TV IT idea or a film idea? Not necessarily are you a film writer or a TV writer? And I just wanted to get your thoughts on this. I hear this advice all over the place. The question was, is this something that could end or is this something that could continue? Is this the kind of idea that there's a clear defined ending to this, right?
Michael Jamin:
I feel like
Phil Hudson:
TV might've changed that now with our long form, eight to 10 minute, like a TV series ends up being a longer form film. But at the same time, I think there's some weight in that, which is something you tie back to in comedy. Your character doesn't really change at the end. They reset. I'd love your on that.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. So if you're coming with a film, is this a TV idea or a film idea? If the character goes on a complete journey, Rocky and Rocky finally wins or goes the distance. It's not a TV show because he's not going to go. It's not a fight of the week. It's just like you take a street bum and you turn into, he went the distance, so it's done. That's it. They made sequels. Sure. Each sequel is basically a remake of the first one, and none of them are as good as the first one because you took a character. The only reason they did sequels is because they, Hey, we can squeeze some more money out of this. The story was over, I'm sorry, the story was over. It was a beautiful story, but it's not like a world of Rocky and Nikki and the gang hanging out that would be hanging out at the training facility at the boxing club. That would be sunny. It's always sunny in Philadelphia, which is fine. That's a TV series. They're just hanging out, people hanging out. So is it a world you're creating, or are you taking a character on a full emotional journey?
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, and that's an interesting, John Wick one is just great. It's great. It's a great film. John Wick two, I kind of like more than John Wick one because we get into the world, but I wouldn't want John Wick two if I hadn't seen John Wick one and felt like it was satisfying at the end, and you're kind of bummed. The other thing, this is just my thing as a writer, I really hate when characters suffer to the nth degree of suffering and just wrecking, this guy just got his life back and now you're going to ruin his life in the second film. It's a bit of a bummer.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. But yeah, so that's what I ask, Yousef, are you creating a world, especially in sitcoms, this is your family. I think of it as, cheers. Do I want to hang out with these people week in and week out? Do I want to let them into my living room? Is that what it is? Because I certainly don't want to let some movies, no. Some movies, no, I don't want to The quiet place quiet. I don't don't want to let them into my living room week after week. That's unsettling to me. Great movie, not a TV show.
Phil Hudson:
Children are men. Children are men. One of the most impactful films I've ever seen. Haven't watched it again, so many,
Michael Jamin:
Right? It's enough. Right, right, right. Got
Phil Hudson:
The lesson. Move on.
Michael Jamin:
Right. Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
Great answer, Michael. Thank you. Bye. It was great.
Michael Jamin:
Alright, everyone, thank you so much. Phil and I have more to talk about. We have some exciting stuff to talk about coming up in future episodes, but thank you so much and for what are we going to talk about, Phil? We got to promote, we have a watch list, our newsletter,
Phil Hudson:
We got all about it. So you can go to michaeljamin.com/newsletter to join the watch list. You can also go to /watchlist. A lot of people know that one, but you've got that. It's a weekly newsletter. You've got the free lesson. It's the first full free lesson. You've broken into three parts. A
Michael Jamin:
Screenwriting lesson,
Phil Hudson:
Right? A screenwriting lesson. If you want to learn more about the very first lesson you ever taught me as a mentor about screenwriting, which I think you were taught, and I think you've taught lots of other people, is what is the definition of a story. So go get that michael jamin.com/free. I think we get three to 500 people a week sign up for
Michael Jamin:
That thing. Oh wow. That's crazy. We also have, we've been doing free webinars and now right now the schedule's up. We're doing it every three weeks instead of every four weeks. So you can come to that michaeljamin.com/webinar and it's free. Come sit in and then
Phil Hudson:
Touring for a P orchestra. That's going to be coming up, I think, at some point, right?
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, hopefully. But we're hoping that our book, my book is going to drop. I'm really happy with the way it's coming up, but we're doing the audio book now, and so maybe we'll talk a little bit more about that. Maybe we will talk more about that in a different episode. Yeah, if you want to come see me on tour or be notified when my book drops as an audio audiobook as well, Michaeljamin.com/upcoming, and the audiobook is really nice. It's really because I got some music. I have a composer on it. We'll talk about it now. I guess. Anthony Rizzo, who is the composer on Maron, well, I'll talk about it in the next episode. We'll open up, talk about that. So go there, michaeljamin.com/upcoming if you want to see me on tour or be notified me the book
Phil Hudson:
Drop. And for everybody watching this, this is going to be a bit out of order, so it'll be the next episode that I'm in. Right? Because the next one, I think you got Steve Lemi coming
Michael Jamin:
Up. Yeah, Lemi is coming up for episode 100 from Broken Lizard. Alright, everyone, thank you so much. Until next time, keep writing. Thank you, Phil.
Phil Hudson:
Thank you.
This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar @michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJamin,writer. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music, by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.
In July, I hosted a webinar called "How To Get Past Hollywood Gatekeepers" where I shared my thoughts on creative things you can do now with the strikes happening, as well as what you shouldn't be doing. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.
Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/
Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course
Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free
Join My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlist
Michael Jamin:
You shouldn't. You should not try to work. I mean, you don't go on any guild SAG projects or guild projects, but you could do, if it's a non SAG project, like a student film or something, you can do that. You're not violating anything. You're not getting paid, but you can build your network. Exactly. Or make your own stuff. If you write your own mini scene or movie or whatever and you shoot it on your phone, you're not breaking any strikes. You're not selling it, you're just shooting it. You're listening to screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael. Hey everybody, welcome back. It's Michael Jamin. I'm here with Phil Hudson and we are going to answer some questions. So as you may or may not know, we host a webinar, a free webinar every three weeks usually, and I try to answer a different topic. And the last topic we did was called How to Get Past Industry Gatekeepers. And we did an exclusive v i P room afterwards where people could ask questions. This is where the questions are coming from, Phil, right?
Phil Hudson:
No, these are actually the ones from the webinar. We didn't
Michael Jamin:
Oh, these are from the webinar. Okay.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, because we shifted things up and for people who, dunno, you were spending a lot of time, we were staying on for an hour doing q and a with everybody, and so we just decided to give everyone an opportunity to hop in and get FaceTime with you. It's limited seats of V I P Q and A, and this is for the people who ask questions during the webinar who didn't get their questions answered right
Michael Jamin:
Now I'm confused. Okay. Yeah, so to be clear, the webinar is free, but we also did a little bonus thing afterwards that people can buy in so I can answer more questions. So these are questions. I didn't get it. We didn't have time to answer and Phil's going to cue me. What is it? Yeah,
Phil Hudson:
No, I was going to say we're going to dive in and I think it's just two things. If you want to have a question answered by Michael, there's two ways to get that done and you're very, very open with your time. One is to join the webinar. We typically have one, sometimes two a month depending on the month, and it's a different topic typically every time. But we have a couple that people really like, so we might be focusing on those. But if you can't get your question answered there, the v i P is an opportunity for them to hop in with you and really just spend that time, time you turn your camera on. You ask my
Michael Jamin:
Question. Well, it's not one-on-one. A small group of people.
Phil Hudson:
So it's not one-on-one in the sense that you sit there and you get to talk to Michael. You don't have to. It's not, yeah. Thank you for clarifying. Yeah. So yeah, let's dive in. And we've done previous episodes. I've broken these into subjects. So there are a couple key categories. This is heavily weighted towards breaking into Hollywood because that was the topic,
Michael Jamin:
But
Phil Hudson:
I think the craft questions are always good. So starting there, Norville, scs, if a character changes for the better over the course of a story, is there initial likability, something to focus on?
Michael Jamin:
Well, likability is a complicated thing. Sometimes people, you'll get a note from the studio saying these need to be likable. And that's not the same thing as the audience needs to the characters, which is a different, okay, so Tony Soprano is not a likable person. You don't want to spend 10 minutes with the guy, he might kill you, okay? But the audience likes to watch him because he's interesting. But often you'll get a note from the studio saying, these characters, they're too unlikable. I don't have an answer to that. It depends if you're doing a drama or a comedy, but generally the note you're going to get is these need to be likable characters, especially if you're doing a comedy. We're spending time with them, we're spending a lot of time with them. So even in Cheers, I'm sure one of the notes was Carla's too unlikable, so they probably softened her up so she wasn't, because you're spending time with him, this is your family, I guess. I dunno if that answers the question. It's the best I can do. Well,
Phil Hudson:
I think the question comes from Save the Cat, which you've admittedly never read and you've never read, but it definitely talks about how your character should do something to make us like them in the first three to five pages because we'll want to root for them and it's a redeeming factor and there's plenty of evidence as to why that's not necessarily
Michael Jamin:
Accurate. I don't subscribe to that. I don't subscribe to that. So yeah,
Phil Hudson:
As good as it gets. You recommended, I read that for a script. I was writing one point. Is that it? Where is that? Not Jack Nicholson.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, I mean I love that, but I don't remember
Phil Hudson:
Telling you, but he throws the dog down the garbage shoot.
Michael Jamin:
Oh yeah, it was the first time we seen him. He throws the dog down the garbage shoot.
Phil Hudson:
It's the opposite of saving the cat.
Michael Jamin:
And it's
Phil Hudson:
A classic, it's incredible film.
Michael Jamin:
And that's a film, right? So that's not a sitcom. So again, I don't subscribe to this thing. The character has to do something likable. What is that? I mean, I think they have to do something interesting. Engaging and throwing a dog on a shoot is kind of interesting for sure. So
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, what kind of person would do that? Use his questions. Jackie Smite. What if you have a script for a very specific franchise? Is it simply foolish if you are an inexperienced or is it a bad idea in general?
Michael Jamin:
Bad idea in general. And it's foolish. You got 'em both write. You can't write for a franchise. You don't own the ip, it's not yours, let it go. You don't write a Marvel movie, don't write a Disney movie with the princesses. It's not yours, so let it go. Don't write anything with a franchise.
Phil Hudson:
This is a very common one. I mean, most people have an idea for a story and it's based off of existing ip. I remember talking to a friend in 2008, a couple months after I really started studying screenwriting. She's like, oh, I have this enemy franchise. I want to adapt for tv. And I was like, okay, I don't think you could do that. And yeah,
Michael Jamin:
Reach out to, if you get the rights from them, then do it, but you don't have the rights, so don't do it.
Phil Hudson:
And that is a process and we'll probably circle back on that because there's a question about attorneys, which we'll get to in a minute.
Michael Jamin:
Oh, okay.
Phil Hudson:
Cliff Johnson ii. I write drama features to half hour comedy and also differing genres. Is it limiting to spread myself thin or should I keep building a diverse portfolio?
Michael Jamin:
You don't need a diverse portfolio. I'd say specialize in whatever it is you enjoy the most. Focus on that, get really good at it, and then market yourself as the best damn thriller writer there is. Or the best broad comedy writer there is. You don't need a broad portfolio. You need to have a specific portfolio that really showcases your excellence in this one area.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. You've given advice as well in the past that let's say you're a sitcom writer, well get really good at writing half hour single camera sitcoms that do multi, then do animated. So you stay in that genre, but you can build a portfolio within that genre to show your base. But it's different than writing violent westerns and Taylor Sheridan style.
Michael Jamin:
Yes. Right. I'm glad you pointed at that. So if you want to be a comedy writer, you might want a Yes. A broad you should have, should have a grounded single camera comedy, but it's all comedy. Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. Awesome. Andrew James jokes, do you see everything from a certain comedic viewpoint when thinking of content or writing a script,
Michael Jamin:
A certain comedic viewpoint? I don't remember. Not sure what that means. There's things that strike me as funny. I'm not sure if I have. I think
Phil Hudson:
For me, I think I understand this question, but I don't want to interrupt you if you have something.
Michael Jamin:
No, what do you think?
Phil Hudson:
I think what's being asked is when I was told once that I have a particular view of the world and it often is a comical view of the world. I look at the ridiculousness of bureaucracy or rules and rather than get upset, I just make fun of them or I find ways to poke holes at them. To me it's really that question. Do you have that point of view to say, this is my Mike. Judge has, I would say, has a really clear point of view and the way he does his things. Do you look at things through a certain lens?
Michael Jamin:
I don't know if I do. I mean, I'm sure I have a voice. I'm always interested, I guess how do I like finding things, thinking of things that are funny, but I'm not sure if I have a specific I tact that I take, sorry, I can't help them more. I got to think about that more. Do I have a point of view? I tend to think silly and stupid, but I think I'm smart. I mean, I went to college and everything, but I don't think I'm dumb, but I think my voice is sometimes of a dumb person.
Phil Hudson:
When I think of your voice, I think of a lot of the things you share about the way you kid with your daughters,
Michael Jamin:
The way I kid with my daughters.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, just like you've done a couple of social media posts where you're like, it's like dad jokes, but at a different level. It's an elevated dad joke almost.
Michael Jamin:
Well, I'm their dad.
Phil Hudson:
I know, but it's like dad jokes very punny. And then yours is one step further and you've done several of these quick bites on social media that are related to your conversations with your daughters. To me, that's Michael Jamin and Comedy.
Michael Jamin:
Oh yeah. I love having fun with my kids. They're so funny. Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
Cool. And then Phyllis Hill, Phyllis was pretty active, so we got a bunch of questions from her, but they were very good. I sorted through a bunch of 'em. And this is a little bit tied to something I know we've talked about before and I just thought it was good to put on the podcast. Have streaming platforms changed story structure, the same story structure that might've been used back during the day of network TV shows?
Michael Jamin:
Great question. Not in a hugely significant way. The biggest thing is probably, well, there's no commercial breaks, but so what? We still break the story still the same. We just don't go to commercial. But when we break it on the whiteboard, same thing. It doesn't matter. The only difference is streamers sometimes want you to have serialized stories. So the end, they want to end on a pregnant moment where, so it's continued. So the next story picks up where the last one ended. That's sometimes what they want so that you binge, but that's kind of easy. Often you can, if you go back and watch Weeds, the show Weeds, they did that really well see, they tell a full story and then at the end the story's over. They just do a weird little thing at the end of that story. And then that story would be the beginning. That beat would be the beginning of the next story. So it's super easy in terms of breaking it. It actually makes it kind of easy. It doesn't make, it's the same kind of storytelling. You're just adding one more beat at the end.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, that's awesome. I think that's a very concise answer, Michael.
Michael Jamin:
I get paid by Word.
Phil Hudson:
I love that. I was going to say Charles Duma is Alexander Duma. I don't know who Charlie Duma is, but he's probably Alexander Dumas's cousin twice divorced. Some questions about your course which come up because during the webinar you're often, one of the things, people have a chance to win your course, you get lifetime access to the course. One person wins every time, but also you give a discount to the course.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, if you're listening to this, come to these free webinars that I div, we give a good discount to anyone who attends
Phil Hudson:
And that opens registration for that block of enrollment. Leonard h wanted to know, will the course do anything for someone working on documentaries?
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, I don't know. I mean personally I think yes, but I'm not a documentary filmmaker, but I have watched documentary films where I thought this would've been better if they went through my course. They would've dove into the emotional moments that I feel. But having never made a documentary, what the hell do I know? But I have watched documentaries where I thought this was good, but it wasn't great. It didn't really move me emotionally or I should. I think that's when documentaries really work is when or anything works when you finish watching it and you're still thinking about it, you're still feeling it the next day. So I don't want to promise, but I would think it would help. But
Phil Hudson:
I have taken a documentary film class as part of my film school stuff. It's honestly one of the better classes I took. It was taught by a guy named Hank who was a Sundance fellow in the documentary labs and he done multiple documentaries. That's literally, he teaches and then he and his wife shoot documentaries and manage those tons of stuff in South by Southwest, the film fest, Sundance Film Festival, all that stuff. And absolutely story structure is a very vital part of that. And you get into the cinema verte and how you're doing your documentary and the influence of structure and story, but the story structure had to be there, or no one wants to watch what you're doing,
Michael Jamin:
Nobody cares. So the hard part is you can't invent that. You have to hopefully capture that and then know, oh, I captured this moment. This would be a good first act break.
Phil Hudson:
But they're scripted there. They're scripted. You need to understand what things you need to get, what beats you want to get as you tell the story. And then it evolves out of that. You often are surprised by what you get, but then there's the paper edit you do when you go into editing where you have transcripts of all the footage and you're looking for things. And it was a little bit uncomfortable for me then and still is now. He even encouraged that it's your job to tell the best version of that story as you can. And there is no such thing as cinema verite, truth of the camera, right? Truth of the lens. You can't because the moment you're there observing it, it changes. And that's a law of physics. You observe an Adam behaves different. And so he says at the end of the day, let's say that you filmed something out of order and there's a clip that you shot two months from now, but it helps tell the story that you need to tell. He had no problem rearranging things or cutting people out of order to get the story that he needed at the end of it.
Michael Jamin:
So your point is the story, our course would help. That's
Phil Hudson:
Your point. Absolutely. Yeah, I absolutely would help.
Michael Jamin:
Alright,
Phil Hudson:
There you go. There you go. A couple of questions from Phyllis. Please compare your class to screenwriting classes like the ones offered on Masterclass.
Michael Jamin:
Well, again, I haven't gone through all the ones in Masterclass. I've watched a few videos of some of the speakers. I don't know, I mean I didn't watch all of it. I don't know. I really can't say having not watched all of it. I think mine is, I would expect mine is a little more hands-on in the sense that I'm teaching you literally how we break a story in the room. I don't fill you with a lot of terms that we don't use, but Phil, have you gone through Masterclass? Yeah. Maybe you'll know better than I do.
Phil Hudson:
Active subscriber to Masterclass for a long time and most of them I can't get through on Masterclass including, and look, I think Aaron Sorkin's one of the most prolific author writers of our time and I love everything he puts out. But
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, he's Shakespeare. He's the Shakespeare of our time.
Phil Hudson:
Couldn't get through it, couldn't get through his course,
Michael Jamin:
Couldn't get through
Phil Hudson:
It. No, a lot of, and actually I can tell you this because in my agency we have a client who is getting their own masterclass right now. So I've got a little view through the window of what that platform is. And I'm not saying all platforms are like this and I don't want to be saying anything disparaging against Masterclass. I really enjoy masterclass, but the amount of content they shoot versus what you get, it's like 20% of what that person did and they're not editing it. So Masterclass does this stuff, they're in Sorkin and then what you get on the back end of that or Shonda Rogers or whoever, you get to the end of that and it's like 20% of what they talked about. It's good, but it's not the meat. It's not the meat of what you want.
Michael Jamin:
I've watched some, not theirs, but I felt, and I love masterclass too, I felt you got a taste of everything. You can really learn a lot about cars and cooking and it's a really great, but I felt like from what I watched, it didn't go deep enough. That's not what it is. It's a sampling. And I thought it was interesting but not helpful for some of the ones I saw. Interesting but not helpful.
Phil Hudson:
The most practical one was Aaron Franklin's barbecue cooking class. And I put that one to good use with my smoker because it is very much, here's how you do it, here's how you tip things, here's how you wrap meat. It's just actionable. So
Michael Jamin:
If I ate meat, I'd come over and make me a nice smoked dinner, but I don't,
Phil Hudson:
You'd be very happy.
Michael Jamin:
I'd probably start sweating.
Phil Hudson:
I'll meat sweats. Yeah, I'll make you some nice broccolini. How about that?
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, that'd be nice.
Phil Hudson:
Alright, and then just another question from Phyllis, and I think this is more broad about you and what you're doing for people online in the webinars with the course, everything. What is your motivation to offer this assistance other than money?
Michael Jamin:
Oh, well, when I broke into the business, this is back in the nineties, this was before the internet and I was living in New York. I knew nothing about the industry. I knew nothing. I knew no one, how would I know anything? So I just got in my car and I drove to LA thinking well get close. But now because the internet, social media, you can talk to people like me and get so much information for free and what a gift. And so I know people say it's impossible to break into Hollywood. Yeah, yes, it's hard, but it's even harder if you don't even know where to begin if you don't have these resources. But now I started building my social media profile back a little over two years ago as a way of building my platform so that I have a book that's coming out so that I could platform my agents has platform drives acquisition. I need a following to sell my book to perform and do all these things that I wanted to do. And so the way to build this platform was by just talking about what I know and giving 90% of it away for free. The other 10% is in this course that we have and that's
Phil Hudson:
It. I a call from Michael and I was doing runs for Tacoma FD like season two or something. And you called me and you're like, Hey man, can you come over? I want run some stuff by you. I know many people know this, but some people don't. I know you through working at a digital marketing agency where I assisted your wife's e-commerce website and just worked for her for a couple of years doing whatever I could to take care of her. She'd been ripped off by the sales guy who sold her some stuff that we couldn't do and I had no idea who you were or what you guys did. And then one day you were going to join and it kind of put it together and you guys were just very kind and have always been kind to share your knowledge with me, but well,
Michael Jamin:
You started it. You started it by being kind first. Let's be clear.
Phil Hudson:
It was the right thing to do, right? It's a principle thing, which is very important. And at the end of the day, you called me over because I have that experience, that skillset, and we just had a sit down in your garage and you broke your Adirondack chair and then you told me that it was
Michael Jamin:
Already broken. Broken, it was already broken,
Phil Hudson:
Was a big guy. I was sweating that once. I had to buy you a director's chair to replace
Michael Jamin:
It.
Phil Hudson:
But anyway, we talked about this, what do you need to do? And I was like, finally, because I've been begging you for years to do this course and to put your stuff out there just because the private email lessons and the conversations we had were so incredibly valuable to me. And I was in flu school at the time and getting more value out of an email you'd send me over a weekend than I was getting in a week of lectures at that school.
This is how you do what you need to do to sell your book and here's how you give. And the mantra of any good digital marketing platform is give, give, give, right, give, give, give. And there's an ask. There's always a right for an ask in there as well, because you are giving, and we talked about the course and you were very clear, I don't want to, you feel sleazy selling things. You don't want to do that you're, you're a writer, you're not a guy who does this. You're not pretending to be the answer to all things. And I said, but people will value what you have and they have to pay for it to value it. So I'm the one who pushed it. I'm the one who pushed the price and you've reduced the price over and over again because you just want to make sure that it's getting as many people as it can.
You do, A lot of people don't know this. You offer basically free financing through yourself. People can sign up for the course on a three month plan, a six month plan, or pay in full and you don't bill 'em any interest. And there are plenty of ways for us to get interest off of people or get people to pay interest and that's just from my perspective, it's 100% honestly. How can I serve as many people as possible so that I can get this passion project of my book speaking as you to as many people as I can.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, there you go. You answered it. Well, Phil, I think you said it better than I did.
Phil Hudson:
I'm growing long-winded in my as I wax old.
Michael Jamin:
Wax old.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. Alright, cool. Now to the meat of the episode for the webinar was about breaking in and so there's some really good stuff here and so I know we'll be quick on some of this, but if you want, this full webinar broadcast is available for purchase as well on your website. It's like 29 bucks and it's lifetime access and they can watch the whole episode of this webinar.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, go get it.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, but Valerie Taylor, so once the script is done, what does it mean to build the mountain? What does the work have to do? And that's reference to a podcast episode we did recently that a lot of people really liked, which is Build Your Mountain.
Michael Jamin:
There are people doing this. I didn't come up with this idea. There are people on social media, content creators who are just putting their out there and because it's really good they're building a following. I dunno if that was their intention in the beginning, but that's what they've done. One I always mention is Sarah Cooper, I wish she would do my podcast. So have you reached
Phil Hudson:
Interesting?
Michael Jamin:
I tagged her on something, but she's busy. She's busy, but I'm a huge fan of hers. So she's this vicious woman, young actress who as far as I can tell she couldn't get arrested in New York City. She just started during the pandemic posting kind of funny lip syncs of Donald Trump, but she wasn't just lip-syncing, was plusing it. She was adding her own comedy to it and her own reactions and it was really, she was great and she's just doing this and she wants to be an actor and a writer, but she's doing this and she was so great at it. She built a giant following and because this following people discovered her and because of that she gets, I think she got a Netflix special. She got a pilot out of it and where the pilot, she can write her own stuff now. I think some of the projects never went to air, but she sold it. She made a name for herself and she will continue making a name for herself because she built it first. She wasn't begging people for opportunities. It's the other way around. She started doing it and then because she was so good at it, people came after her. People started begging her.
And you don't have to, and I think maybe Phil, we might even do a whole, I may save some of this information from our next webinar. I want talk. Yeah, I'm going to save, but I have more thoughts to this I I'll put in our next free webinar. Write. Write. Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
Can't wait. Oh, by the way, Michael puts a month worth of effort into writing every webinar. I see the revisions and I'm always like, Michael, I need this so I can make the workbook. Michael, I need this. And he's still editing. So Hayden, Sears, earlier you said to bring more to the table of an agency than a script. What else should I bring to the table?
Michael Jamin:
You could do what I just said with Sarah Cooper. She brought a huge following. She brought, you could bring talent, you could bring a movie that you launched, finance that you did yourself at Sundance that got accolades and now you're this hot new director or writer or whatever. That's bringing more to the table than saying, Hey, pick me. You're doing it already. You are already doing it. You're proving that you know how to do it. And people don't do it because it's work or they think it's too expensive. But I have to say, it's not the money that's holding you back. The money. You can raise $10,000 or $15,000. I know it's not nothing but it. We're not talking about a million dollars, we're talking about 10,000. You can raise it on a Kickstarter, you can raise it on a bake sale and you can shoot the damn thing on your phone and you can edit it on your phone.
You just need good sound. That's what I recommend. But you don't need great locations. You can shoot the thing one, I always mention this, Phil is the whale, the movie The Whale, which is based on a play that was shot in an apartment. So don't tell me you need to have great locations to make something amazing. It was shot in a dumpy apartment and one of the most, it was a beautiful story. Beautiful. It was all because the writing, the writing was excellent and because the writing was X, it was able to attract great actors and the acting rose to the writing. If the writing was no good, who cares what the acting is?
Phil Hudson:
Yep. Cynthia always said that in our classes with Jill, your interacting classes, the writers put it on the page. Everything in actor needs to know is on the page. That's where the performance comes from.
Michael Jamin:
If it's a good script, yeah.
Phil Hudson:
Awesome. The cinema magician with the strike going on from both the writers and the actors now it feels like it wouldn't be fair trying to come get work this moment. How can I try to try for work and support the union?
Michael Jamin:
You shouldn't. You should not try to work. I mean, you don't go on any guild sag projects or guild projects, but you could do, if it's a non sag project, like a student film or something, you can do that. You're not violating anything. You're not getting paid. So
Phil Hudson:
Build your network.
Michael Jamin:
Build your network. Exactly. Or make your own stuff. If you write your own mini scene or movie or whatever and you shoot it on your phone, you're not breaking any strikes. You're not selling it. You're just shooting it.
Phil Hudson:
Yep. Awesome. Love Leanne. Who is a member of your course, how should we speak to writers and other filmmakers on the picket lines? I've seen others not doing it very well and I'm kind of afraid to speak.
Michael Jamin:
Oh, well that's hard. I mean, all you got to do is don't act like you want something from them. Just act like you want to learn from them. Hey, tell me about your story. Tell me how did you start? How did you break in? What kind of shows do you like to write? What inspires you? Pretend like they're a guest on your radio show or your podcast. Interview them. We don't want anything from them. You're just curious to get their story. People will talk.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, they definitely will. And when I've gone out and done picketing, it's really interesting. I don't talk to people, I'm just, who are you? Tell me about you. What are you doing here? Why are you here? What are you doing out on the picket line? Cool. Are you in industry? Breaking in the industry? Oh great. Oh, cool. You worked on that show. I love that show. Awesome. And then they ask you questions too, because walking in circles for hours
Michael Jamin:
And you're a human being and they're going to make conversation. The conversation will eventually turn around to you and then you can talk about yourself.
Phil Hudson:
Have you noticed the people who put up their YouTube channel and stuff on flyers on the poles and stuff in the corners?
Michael Jamin:
No. I have not seen that. I have promoting their own channel.
Phil Hudson:
It feels a little skeezy to me. Personal. I'm
Michael Jamin:
Not. The problem is no one's looking at him anyway, so Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, you haven't noticed. And when I see 'em, I'm just like, ah, man's. I don't know. That's the way to do that. You're basically saying, look at me. Look at me. Instead of being there, walking on the picket lines, talking to people and putting in effort to fight for the same things they're fighting
Michael Jamin:
For. Yeah. You don't have to promote yourself.
Phil Hudson:
Alright, Norville, scss. Does the strike lead to an increasing demand for scripts?
Michael Jamin:
Well, when the strike is over, there will be, everyone will flood the market with their scripts and that's just the way it is. So
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. Demand, but also supply because all of these writers have time to write.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, right.
Phil Hudson:
Antonia, Roman. Hey, Michael, met you yesterday on the picket. I appreciate your insight. How many script feedback reads should someone actually pay for? Sometimes the feedbacks contradict each other.
Michael Jamin:
Thanks. Oh, Phil, I
Phil Hudson:
Know.
Michael Jamin:
Here we go.
Phil Hudson:
My purpose. Yeah,
Michael Jamin:
Many. If you're paying in one of these services and maybe it's like 150 bucks for one of these services, you're going to get who you get who's reading the script other than it's someone who works at the service, they don't know more than you do. They just work there and they're making whatever, 20 bucks an hour or maybe less to read script after script. What's their qualifications beats the hell out of me. Other than the fact that they're working there and they're not industry deciders. They're not like they don't have jobs in SC screenwriting. If they did, they would be doing that. So a service, I'd pay nothing, because that's why you're going to get contradictory feedback. What do they know? They don't know more than you. If you can find a writer with experience, and there are writers who will do this as a freelance thing, check out their credits, go on their I M D B, what have they written? Ask to see their work. What have they read their work? Do you like their work? And if you do, then yes, then your feedback could be valuable. But I would never go through a service.
Phil Hudson:
Yep. We did talk about this where I sent Michael, I paid for feedback from some of these services on your behalf, listener to the podcast. And then I shared the emails back and forth from them, the reviews as well as when I questioned the validity of the feedback I received from them. I sent Michael those. And I think the feedback from the service was way more infuriating
Michael Jamin:
Than the Yeah, it just made you mad. It made you feel like you got ripped off. Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative
Types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.
Phil Hudson:
Awesome. Ruth W should emerging rider approach breaking in differently than before, given the strike, are there any new approaches that should be considered? Thanks?
Michael Jamin:
I don't think, wait for the strike to end before you think about breaking in, but the landscape has changed so much with social media that you don't need anyone's permission. I just talked about this. You don't need anyone's permission to write and build up your brand. I'm not doing it. I'm not waiting for anyone's permission. I don't know why anybody else would. I have a good podcast guest this week? Well, I dunno when you're going to hear this Mike Sacks, go listen to him. See, he's an author and he talks about that himself. He has sold books to publishers and he's also indie published it himself and he makes a really strong case for just doing it yourself. And he's done both. And he's an editor at Vanity Fair. So the guy knows how to write.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, yeah. Also, definitely don't try breaking him right now. They're very clear rules that the writer's guilds come out and said, if you even have meetings with producers, that is an act of crossing a picket line.
Michael Jamin:
No, I'm not talking to my agent, I'm not talking to producers. I'm not doing any of this. You
Phil Hudson:
Mean they will literally forbid you from joining the guild. So any short term win now is basically a nail in the coffin of your career later and as it should be, Susan Mark, when you get the low paying non-union screenwriting gigs over and over, how do you move from that into network shows with four question marks?
Michael Jamin:
The fact that you're getting these jobs to begin with are great, even if they're non-union. So good for you. I mean, this is where if these movies are doing or shows are doing well and if they're well received and if they're written well, and this is what you show to an agent and you say, here's my body of work and here's a movie I did that it cost 10,000 to make, and the return on it was a hundred thousand. That's impressive. So that's how you can parlay that into bigger opportunities. But the problem is, if you're doing this work and the work isn't coming out good, it still has to be good. It has to be good. And people have, it has to have be one or the other critically well-received or makes a lot of money. It has to be a financial success. One or both. One or the other or both.
Phil Hudson:
Awesome. Roxanna Black Sea. How do you get over feeling guilty asking a friend or a mentor for a referral and how do you know you're ready and not wasting their time? This is a good one. I might as well wrote this, Michael.
Michael Jamin:
Well, if you have a friend who's in the industry, I dunno if they're in the industry or not, but you only have one chance to impress them. And if you give them something that's not great, it's a big ask. Hey, sit down and read this. It's going to take them an hour and a half or whatever. And if it's not great, they're not going to want to do it again. They'll do a favor once, but they won't do it again. So there's that. The get over the guilt. Well, if you've giving them a giant gift, you shouldn't feel guilty If it's giving 'em a piece of shit, well, you're going to feel guilty, but you just need to know what it is you're giving them.
Phil Hudson:
That takes a lot of introspection and a lot of self-analysis. I would also say it takes a lot of practice and study of existing high quality works to compare yourself.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, high quality. That's the thing, Phil, if you're watching some crappy TV show and you go, well, I can write a crappy TV show that's not the bar
Phil Hudson:
Crap. Plus one that's been around for since the a o l days crap plus one is I can do one better than that. It's not good enough. Yeah,
Michael Jamin:
Not good enough.
Phil Hudson:
Alright, Ruth w again, if you know an established riders working on a new project that you have happen to have particular rare knowledge on, is it appropriate to contact that rider even to work for free? And then there's a follow-up to this.
Michael Jamin:
Well, if they're on a show and you have particular knowledge, they're not going to let you work for free. You can't work for free. But you can share your knowledge and I don't know, it always, you can share your knowledge, but no one's, you're not allowed to work for free. So I don't know what if they're going to offer you a job or not,
Phil Hudson:
But is it okay to reach out to them?
Michael Jamin:
Why not? What's the harm? Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
I think the benefit of that is you are going in to say, Hey, I saw you're doing this. I happen to be a subject matter expert on that. Anything you want to ask me, I'm happy to go over with you and bring out any insights you want. You are now serving that person. You're not coming in and say, give me a job, give me a job. And you might hop on a zoom with them and have an intro. Now you've got a foot in the door to have an extended conversation as someone, and you've provided value to that person.
Michael Jamin:
Right. Then you're right. You're not asking for anything in return, but people tend to give things back when people give first.
Phil Hudson:
Yep. And the follow up question, is it okay to contact an agent to get the contact information for that rider that you would like to help for free?
Michael Jamin:
So you don't know this person. Yeah, you, the agent's not going to do anything with it. I would doubt they're going to do anything with it. You could reach out to them on LinkedIn, maybe you could tweet that.
Phil Hudson:
This might be a good time to slide into the dms. Right. And because you're not asking, you're providing value
Michael Jamin:
And
Phil Hudson:
Expect them not to reply.
Michael Jamin:
Right. Expect 'em not to reply. And it's because you, maybe they get too many solicitations or maybe it's just they find it weird. It's worth a shot.
Phil Hudson:
It also might just be that they don't have time to look at their social media, which is very real. Don't read into it. Just shoot your shot. Move on.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, right. Don't wait. Don't hold your breath. Shoot your shot and keep shooting your shot. Keep working on yourself. Yep.
Phil Hudson:
Genova, is there anything we need to be wary of when approaching smaller agencies with our scripts so we don't get screwed?
Michael Jamin:
Well, the agencies, first of all, don't approach any agency that's going to charge you for to represent you. That's no legit agents work on commission. Now the big ones are not going to represent you. You have to reach out to smaller ones who are soliciting clients. I wouldn't expect an agent to, I wouldn't expect them to rip you off. That's not what they do. They're going to represent you and try to sell you. The agents are not producers, they're not screenwriters. So to me it's safe. But again, I don't give legal advice if you have to do what's comfortable for you personally, I don't worry about that. That's not something I worry about.
Phil Hudson:
And you started at a smaller agency that some could say screwed you, but I don't know that you see it that way, right? Because you got hip pocketed basically as a baby writer.
Michael Jamin:
They didn't screw me, they just didn't do anything.
Phil Hudson:
That's saying they didn't screw you. But some people might say they screwed you because they didn't do anything.
Michael Jamin:
Oh yeah. But they didn't steal anything from me. They just didn't help my career any.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, and we talked about that in some of the early podcasts. If you want to go back and listen to those. I think it was the agents and manager episode is like episode five or something.
Michael Jamin:
So
Phil Hudson:
95 something episodes ago. It's
Michael Jamin:
Great. Yeah. You remember this stuff.
Phil Hudson:
Shem L. Do you think New York and LA are still the places to make it?
Michael Jamin:
No. I think LA is the place to make it. Take New York off the list. Where is Hollywood? This is a trivia question. Find it on the map. Hint, it's in Los Angeles. I understand that some television production or film production is done in New York. Some Where's the writing done? The writing's done in la. Same thing with Georgia or New Mexico. Sometimes they shoot things there for tax breaks, but the writing is almost always done in LA and even if some writing is done in these smaller cities, okay, fine, maybe you'll get incredibly lucky, but you're not going to be able to sustain a career there. The career's here, that's how I feel.
Phil Hudson:
All right. And Jill Hargrave. I'm a senior writer, 76 years old, transition from decades as a documentary producer to screenwriter. I have an agent and I'm in the news division with the W G A East. Any advice on how to get read by execs?
Michael Jamin:
I'm looking for, so she's a news writer.
Phil Hudson:
Sounds like she's a writer in the news division for the W G A East. She has decades of experience being a producer in documentary film. She has an agent advice on how to get executives to read your stuff.
Michael Jamin:
Sorry. Yeah, so you're in the same boat as everyone else. I don't think you got a leg up. You sound like you're very competent news producer, but you might as well be an orthodontist. It's a different kind of writing, but she
Phil Hudson:
Has an agent.
Michael Jamin:
Ask your agent. I suspect your agent's not going to give a crap. Your agent is able to get you news jobs. That's what you are and that's what you bring value to them. But they're not interested in you starting your career over from zero. My friend Rob Cohen talked about this in one of our podcasts. He was a very successful sitcom writer, wrote on a bunch of shows including The Simpsons, including Just Shoot Me where I was on maybe 20 or so years into his career as a TV writer, very successful TV writer. I ran into him and he's like, I want to be a director now. I want to direct TV and film. I thought, well, how are you going to do that? He goes, I don't know, but I'm going to make it happen. I said, well, is your agent helping you at all?
No, the agent's not going to help me one bit, even though he's a successful TV writer because it's a different thing. It's directing. They don't want to sell 'em as that. They can sell 'em as a TV writer, but not as a director. So unfortunately, you're going to have to start over. You milk whatever context you have. Maybe your agent can set you up with a referral with another agent at their agency that they should be able to do. But at the end of the day, you unfortunately have to make your career. They're not going to make your career for you
Phil Hudson:
If they have an agent because they have some screenplay sample that they've submitted. My guess would be that that's when your agent would show those. When we're not on a strike, they'd take your samples and try to sell those things to people that get you staffed and they're going to do that job for you. But it sounds like through the question that you're right, Michael, that's not a writing agent in this space. It's documented or a new set,
Michael Jamin:
But talk to them, maybe get some tips. I mean, again, I've tried to do the same thing myself. My agents, I have big agents and manager. They don't give a crap unless I can make money for them today in my field. They don't really care.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. Awesome. Ruth w this is miscellaneous. I've got three more questions here. Excuse me for, is there any value in getting an entertainment lawyer? Does this confer any legitimacy when trying to get people to read your script? Or is it just a waste of money and Yeah, there's some follow-up to this. We'll get to that.
Michael Jamin:
So no, an entertainment attorney is the best money I spend. My attorney takes 5% of all the deals that I make and they help negotiate these deals. Money well spent, but it's only when I'm negotiating a deal, that's when they get paid. They get a commission. I would never pay an entertainment attorney upfront. It doesn't help you make a deal. It doesn't help you look more important. You're just going to pay them a lot of money out of pocket for no reason. Attorneys are there to help you negotiate the deal and read the fine print so you don't get screwed. That's what they help you do, but you don't pay one upfront for any. As far as I know, I would never pay one upfront.
Phil Hudson:
I've had two in my career and the first one didn't do a lot. This one, and we worked with him on some stuff today, actually. You and I were going over some tree mark stuff with him. But anyway, he is great and he comes at it from the perspective of that, which is, my job is to protect you and I can be the bad guy. I can go fight the fight for you to get you what you want. And you can say, Hey man, that's just what my lawyer does. You're going to have to take that up with my attorney. And we talked in the podcast about this recent experience I had where he wrote this contract and the guy signed it and he ended up protecting my butt because he put a clause in that said nothing was executable until it was paid. Money was delivered.
And so because this guy never exchanged money, he only talked about exchanging money. I'm not obligated to do anything for this guy. And had I walked into that, I probably would've just signed something and not had the foresight to have that. He also had it paid in steps. So above and beyond the WJ minimums, he structured it. So I'd get paid more money upfront like you want money in your pocket? And he deals with Sony and major country musicians. He's a real proper entertainment attorney. Incredibly valuable. And it looks like he answered honestly the question, what's the difference between an agent who's going to get 10%? What's a lawyer do? What's the difference? And the answer is the agent basically books the deal. The attorney gets you the most money they can out of that deal,
Michael Jamin:
And the agent's not going to read the contract. They don't read contract. They're not lawyers. They don't deal with that. So you need an attorney.
Phil Hudson:
Love it. Goddard Fin, any insight on getting a preliminary budget done by someone or a company like Mike Binder's, budget company? I'm assuming is this for an indie project?
Michael Jamin:
I never heard of that and I wouldn't know.
Phil Hudson:
Or it's a preliminary budget on a script.
Michael Jamin:
I thought he was an actor. Michael Binder. I thought he was an actor. I don't even know. I've never even heard of this, so I can't even answer.
Phil Hudson:
My feeling is, from what I understand from this question is there's zero value added to your script when you go to pitch your story by telling them, this is the budget I got for this
Michael Jamin:
For somebody. No, they'll tell you the budget if that's what that is. It's interesting. Yeah. I thought maybe this is for indies. No, when you saw the MoVI, they'll tell you what the budget is. It is their money. You don't tell them what the budget is. They tell you.
Phil Hudson:
And the answer is in the indie film, if it is, that is you're going to scrounge with every dollar you can get, and then you're going to make what you can with the budget you got. And that's what a line producer does for you. And they basically manage the contracts and make sure your people get paid. And you don't go over budget and you can finish your project and they'll tell you, Hey, you can't do that. You don't have the money to do that.
Michael Jamin:
Right.
Phil Hudson:
Cool. Ruth w with another, one of the reasons I am reticent to fill my own stuff is because I don't have any money to pay actors. Is it okay to ask them to work for free?
Michael Jamin:
You can often, actors will do this just to have tape so that they can submit themselves. But the work has to be good. You're not going to, the better the script is, the easier it is to attract actors and better actors. And if it's a great script, they'll fall over themselves for to do this. So you ask them to do it for free. Definitely. You don't want to abuse them. You want to make sure, buy them pizza, buy them lunch, make sure there's water on set. Take care of them. That's the least you can do.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. And people will absolutely do that. There's also, if you're a student, you can also look into sag, SAG after student agreements, which probably you might even still be able to do that during the strike. It's not really a paid project, but they have agreements that you can work with SAG qualified actors and you have to abide by those terms if they are a SAG actor. But you can get them in your projects I did in film school.
Michael Jamin:
Right. Okay.
Phil Hudson:
Last question. As a showrunner, do you direct episodes two or just focus on running the show
Michael Jamin:
As a showrunner? I have, but I'm not in animation. I direct the actors for sure to get the performances out of them. But in live action, I've only directed one. That's not my job. But my job is to be on set and to make sure I'm getting the shots that I want and to get the performances that I want. Ultimately in film, I'm sorry, tv, the director works for the showrunner. So on tv, the showrunner's in charge, in film the other way around, it's the director's in charge. The writer is nothing. So does that answer your question? I think it does. Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
I think it just for you specifically, what do you do? But I do know showrunners who do direct on Taco fd. Yeah, Kevin. Kevin and Steve. They split 'em up and they direct certain episodes. They also,
Michael Jamin:
Those guys are tireless.
Phil Hudson:
Tireless. Yeah. I dunno how they do. I toured with them for a press tour and I was exhausted and they were just still going and happy to go. And I get emails from 'em at two, three in the morning and they're just going, oh
Michael Jamin:
God.
Phil Hudson:
Oh God. But that's how they made their career. I mean, this just ties it all together for Michael. Make it happen. Put in the effort. Those guys made their own things happen. They have shows their names and you know 'em because they put in the work. Had they not done that, they wouldn't be anywhere.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah.
Phil Hudson:
Cool. Michael, anything else you want to add?
Michael Jamin:
That's it. We did it, Phil. Yeah, we did it.
Phil Hudson:
So things people need to know. Michael, you got tons of free stuff. You talked about free samples of work, of writing.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, I do free work too. I do free work here. We got a lot of free stuff we give away anyway on my website. If you go to michaeljamin.com, you can get sample scripts that I've written. You can get a free lesson that I've planned about story. You can sign up for my free webinars, which are every three weeks, which Phil helps me out with. You can come see me tour on one of my book drops, a paper orchestra. You can sign up for all of that and much, much more. And also, of course we have a course but that you got to pay for. But you know what it's worth. Every penny.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah, that's right. And again, get a discount when you come to the webinar.
Michael Jamin:
Nice. Nice discount. Don't tell anyone.
Phil Hudson:
And you could win a free access.
Michael Jamin:
Oh, you can win it. Yeah, you can win it.
Phil Hudson:
Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Michael, thank you so much. Oh,
Michael Jamin:
And my newsletter. Phil, you can get on my free newsletter. I got that. Always forget
Phil Hudson:
That. We also forget that that list is 30,000 deep or something like that right now. That's a good lists of people. That and industry, double industry open rates. People really like that list, that content.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. The people like that. So sign up for my list.
Phil Hudson:
Be like the masses, be sheep. People join us.
Michael Jamin:
Okay, everyone, thank you so much. Until next week. Keep writing, right, Phil, fill that up.
Phil Hudson:
That is Wright, w r i t e. Right.
Michael Jamin:
Okay. Alright. Thanks guys.
Phil Hudson:
This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear this with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar@michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @Michael Jaminwriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music, by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.
On this week's episode, Writer/Executive Producer Alex Berger (Blindspot, Glen Martin D.D.S, Quantum Leap, and many many more) talks about his writing career, thoughts on breaking into the industry as well as his experiences taking a "Showrunners Course" through the studios.
Alex Berger on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1584238/
Alex Berger on Twitter: https://twitter.com/alexbergerla?lang=en
Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/
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Alex Berger:
They said, when you're interviewing a director, ask if you're the showrunner and you're interviewing somebody who's coming in to do an episode of your show, ask the director, do you cook? And if so, are you a person who uses a recipe or do you like to improvise? And there's no right answer to that, right? But if you cook and you're the person who is going to measure out the exact number of grams of flour and the exact number of grams of sugar, that's kind of how you're going to approach directing. If you're going to come in with a shot list, you're going to be going to stay on time. You're going to make sure that you move the set along. And if you're the person who likes to kind throw a little salt to throw a little sugar, you might be a little more improvisational on say you might be a little more, more. There's little things like that that you're going to how to dig in on this with those. Now
Michael Jamin:
You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.
Hey everyone. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. Michael Jamin here. I have another wonderful guest today and this guest, we're going to talk about drama writing because he works primarily in drama and his story is fascinating how he broke in. And we're going to get to please welcome Mr. Alex Berger and he's worked on Alex. Let me introduce people to some of your amazing credits here and you can fill in in, I'm just going to go for some of the highlights. Well, I know you did Kil, you co-created Glen Martin d d s, which is the show. My partner ran Covert Affairs, the Assets Franklin and Bash the Mentalist Blind Spot. And currently you are a writer on Quantum Leap, so you got a lot of drama. Burger. Welcome, welcome to the podcast.
Alex Berger:
Thank you so much for having me. It's, it's good to be here. I've been enjoying listening to it.
Michael Jamin:
Oh man, I'm so happy you're doing this. Let's talk. Let's start from the beginning because I think it was so interesting about your background. So many people say, how do I get a showrunner attached to sell my show? And you kind of sold your show, your show, Glen Martin, d d s. You were pretty new to the scene and then you got a show on the air without much experience. So how did that happen?
Alex Berger:
Yeah, I'd been out here for probably five or six years and I'd had a couple of staff jobs. I'd had a job doing a sort of comedy variety show before that. That was a very sort of small potatoes thing. But that came about because Steve Cohen Cohen, who I know you've talked about before, was a friend of mine and had mentioned this idea that Michael Eisner had for a long time about a family who traveled the country in an rv and they had writers attached for a long time. Tim and Eric of Tim and Eric Show were attached to write the thing.
Michael Jamin:
I didn't know any of this.
Alex Berger:
They got a 60 episode order on their other show, and so they had to back out. And so Steve would come in and pitch a take. So I came in and I pitched a take, and Michael Eisner, who had just left basically running Hollywood, he was running, Disney had just started a company, and he had just had larynx surgery, so he couldn't talk. So every time I pitched something, he had to write his response on a computer, which was fun, but a little challenging.
Michael Jamin:
But what was the idea, how much, when you pitched your take, what did they give you?
Alex Berger:
He had said Family lives in an rv. Basically it travels the country and animation. And he had more than that. I mean, it is been almost 20 years, so I've forgotten. But he definitely had a real idea. He'd had this idea for 30 or 40 years that he'd wanted to do over the years at Disney and he wasn't able to do it. So he had a pretty formed idea of what he wanted the show to be. But
Michael Jamin:
Was it dentist you came up with that through
Alex Berger:
Development? I mean, that was sort of like Steve and I, Steve became sort of a, and it was almost like an incubator instead of a typical situation in which I would come in and pitch a show, he kind of brainstormed with me and created the ideas with me, and we kind of toyed with a couple of different versions of it and came up with the idea of him being, why is he on the road and what's he driving in? And came up with the idea of a dentist that was in his mobile dentistry unit and sort of built some of the characters around that. And it kind of kept getting added to,
Michael Jamin:
Because all that stuff became comedy gold throughout the seasons. We were like, what kind of idiot has a dental car? Who does he think, what kind of clients? How does that work? And it all became fodder for the show,
Alex Berger:
For the circus at one point. And it was doing dental work on animals, if I remember correctly. But it was definitely, I didn't think I'd seen that before. So that was kind of one of the things that was fun to explore.
Michael Jamin:
And so you came up with all the, well, at least the dynamics for the characters, because what I remember, we watched the, I dunno if it was a pilot or presentation that you saw, but yeah, the characters you invented were funny. You had the dumb kid, he had the daughter and she had an assistant, which we hadn't seen that before.
Alex Berger:
It was definitely even more than other experiences I've had in development, very much a team effort. And then we had sort of come up with a script, and then I think you had Eric Fogle on the show before, and Eric came on and was also sort of added his vision both in terms of look and feel and tone and story, and was digging in with us. And then Michael on his own, paid for an eight minute pilot presentation. So they made an eight minute stop motion, basically the first act of the show. And he took it downtown and took it everywhere. And we ended up setting it up at Nick at night with this 20 episode order. And I think that's when you guys sort of made the picture, right?
Michael Jamin:
So you started, I'm curious. It's funny how I never even asked you about this. So at that point you had to meet showrunners for a show you created, which we're going to talk about a second. Did you meet a lot of showrunners?
Alex Berger:
I met none of the showrunners. I met you guys after you'd been hired.
Michael Jamin:
Oh, really? I wonder how many they had. So
Alex Berger:
The tote system was, they wanted to sort of make that decision. And so they met with showrunners and had decided they were very much immediately captivated by you guys and were really excited about, and I don't think it was a pretty quick decision. And then they had me come to meet you guys.
Michael Jamin:
Now the thing is, I imagine you were very easy to work with and to your great credit, I always felt like you just turned over the keys and it was like, okay, here you go. And it was never an ego thing if you, but was it difficult though for you?
Alex Berger:
I mean, I can give you the answer that I was thinking at the time, and I can give you the answer that I have in retrospect. I think at the time I felt like, I don't know. It's a good question. Let me give you the answer in retrospect first, which is in retrospect, I know that I was inexperienced to know, especially about comedy writing a lot and certainly about running a show. I think at the time I was very happy for you guys to come in and run it. And exactly as you said, take the keys. I think that I felt intimidated because it was a room full of really seasoned comedy writers. I knew I was one of the least experienced writers on the show, and yet my name was on the show. So it was a kind of a weird game. It's not like a typical situation in which a more experienced writer comes in, but they've never run a show.
So they pair them with a show runner and then they're really a triumvirate or something. I definitely felt like experience wise and sort of comedy chops wise, I was with folks who'd broken 2, 3, 400 episodes of cool sitcoms that I really admired. So I felt like I wanted to contribute from a character and comedy perspective as much as I could, but I also felt like I was learning on the fly that I had my name on. So it was definitely tricky to sort of figure that out. But you guys were great about never feeling like you were stepping on toes, and you always would consult with me, especially at the beginning, but it was very clear that it was your show, but it was also that you wanted me to sort be on board with what we were doing.
Michael Jamin:
And I mean, it was a fun room. I mean, maybe I shouldn't speak for you. I thought it was a fun room. Yeah,
Alex Berger:
Yeah, it was great. I mean, it was like I'd never been in a sitcom room before. I mean, I've been in a couple of drama rooms as an assistant and a writer, and those rooms are more buttoned up and a little more like, let's come in at 10 and start talking about the story at 10 15. And there's definitely bits and sort of digressions, but a comedy room has a certain energy that you can't replicate. And it was really fun to be in that room. And I've been in rooms that are a little bit like that since, but never anything that was, I laughed quite so much, just had it.
Michael Jamin:
I was going to ask you about that, right? I haven't worked in any, we've done dark comedy, but never drama. And so I'm curious, you've done a lot of drama. So are the rooms, are they really what you're saying? Are they buttoned up? Are they sur because it's still a creative shop?
Alex Berger:
It's fun. I would say this is based on a very small sample size of my two years in Glen Martin. And then just listening to comedy writers talk, I think comedy writers find the genius through procrastination. I think that it takes the tangent sometimes to get you to the gold. And I know you guys, especially more than other comedy writers I've known, were very focused on story structure. I know from your time with Greg Daniels and Seaver had bought a book at the mall,
And it was very important to you that the story felt like it had load-bearing walls, but it did feel like more free flowing and there were room bits and there was a whole sitcom inside that room of three characters, both people in the room and people we were looking out the window at. So that's definitely different than other shows I've been on, other shows I've been on, it's a little more like, all right, let's get to work. And especially these days with room hours have gotten shorter and so on less. And I've been in Zoom rooms for the last couple of years, so it's even less of a room
Michael Jamin:
Basic. Oh, so gotten, haven't gotten, your last rooms haven't been in person either. You
Alex Berger:
Haven't? Yeah, I've been in three Zoom rooms since the pandemic.
Michael Jamin:
It's funny you mentioned because comedy rooms have room bits and our offices were on Beverly Hills and Big glamorous street in Beverly Hills. We would look out the window, and you're right, we would create stories when we weren't making stories for the tv, we were making stories for the regular characters that we would see outside our windows.
Alex Berger:
Yeah, I mean truly. I know you had Brian and Steve and a couple of other people from the show on. I have not laughed that hard in a room.
It was a blast. And I also think there's value to it creatively. It's not wasted time. I think it's just a different way of getting to the process. I remember hearing once of, I can't remember which one, it was a Simpsons writer who would be on draft. He had two weeks to write his draft, and he would past around the fox lot for 12 days and then write the draft in the last two days. And someone asked him, why don't you just write the draft for the first two days and then be done? And he said, because I need those 12 days of pacing to get me to the last two days. And I think copywriter are more prone to that kind of way of thinking. I think.
Michael Jamin:
See, see, I don't remember that way always. I always get nervous when that story's not broken. I always want to crack the whip seavers more. Like that's, but to me, I was always,
Alex Berger:
When you were in the room, it was more like, let's stay on story. And when see, it was a little more. And then when you guys were both out of the room, it was even more free flowing, which is not to say that all of the eps weren't trying to keep us on story, but its like it's was a silly show about silly characters and absurd, every premise of every episode had a massive degree of absurdity to it. And so you wouldn't be too serious in a room like that, or you wouldn't be ready to make that kind of show. I mean, at least that was my take on it.
Michael Jamin:
I would describe that as a writer's show. It was always about what made us laugh and not the 15 year old kids who shouldn't be watching or the 10 year old kids. I know
Alex Berger:
It was either Brian or Steve who said it was a show with a demographic of nobody.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah,
Alex Berger:
The demographic of the 15 people in that room for sure. We all really enjoyed watch them. They're all really funny. They're
Michael Jamin:
Funny.
Alex Berger:
It was on the wrong network.
Michael Jamin:
Oh, for sure. Steve and I were horsing around procrastinating on some work we were doing, and for some reason we stumbled on, maybe it was some guy's YouTube channel where he was talking about Glen Martin and this guy nailed it. It was like he was in the room. I don't know how he knew every, it seemed like he knew where we messed up. He knew where we got it. Right. I was just
Alex Berger:
Amazed. I saw that video and I was like, I can't believe somebody watched the show. I thought that literally, I could not imagine that this guy was that deep into the show.
Michael Jamin:
Oh no. I get a lot of comments on social media like, oh my God, you ruined my childhood. Really? Like you gave me nightmares.
Alex Berger:
My wife's cousin is like 25 or 26, and he's dating a girl. And on the second date, he asked her what your favorite shows are. And the second show she said was Glen Martin, d d s. And when he said, oh, my wife's cousin wrote that show, she was instantly smid with him. She gave him so much gr.
Michael Jamin:
Oh, that's so funny. I mean, it was a wild show, man. Too bad. That was a shame. We were going to spin it off too. We all, oh yeah,
Alex Berger:
Stone spin off right behind. Oh
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, there you go.
Alex Berger:
The Drake Stone. Yeah,
Michael Jamin:
All my dolls. Yeah. As soon as they went under, they go here. Here take some. You must have some dolls, right? They give you some dolls. I have
Alex Berger:
Alen Martin Puppet and an Alex Burger puppet, and my kids constantly want to play with them and I won't let them.
Michael Jamin:
Who were you in the show? I don't remember what kind.
Alex Berger:
I think I was a Greek God carrying somebody at some point in some fantasy sequence and they would reuse the puppets. That was what was so funny. So I think that was one thing, and then they reused me as another thing.
Michael Jamin:
And did you ever get out to Toronto to see the
Alex Berger:
No. Did you go up
Michael Jamin:
There? Oh yeah. We went once and Fogel and I had a very romantic dinner together on top of the Toronto Space Needle or whatever they call that. I saw
Alex Berger:
Them shooting the pilot presentation, which they shy in New York. It was incredibly cool, but just I've always found set to be tedious in general, but I can't imagine how tedious it must be to do stop motion.
Michael Jamin:
Do you go, oh, I think they wanted to poke their eyes out, but do you go on set a lot for dramas? Yeah. Is it just your episode or what?
Alex Berger:
Depends on the show. I did this show called Blind Spot for five years, and basically we would have a writer on set for every episode and we would try to make it your episode, but oftentimes it was the writer who wrote the episode had a baby and is on maternity leave or they can't go to New York at this time or if they went to New York and they wouldn't be back in LA for the breaking of their next episode. So we tried to shuffle it around a little bit and it's trickier when it's out of town. You've got to make people have life that they've got to plan around. But you're going for three and a half weeks to New York.
Michael Jamin:
Are most of your show shot out of town?
Alex Berger:
It's been mixed Quantum Leap, which is the show I'm on now is Shot Year on the Universe a lot. Blind Spot was New York Covert Affairs, which I went to a lot of episodes for, was in Toronto, which was a lot of fun. And then I've had a couple Franklin, imagine the Mentalists were LA and it's been sort of a mix.
Michael Jamin:
How many day shoots are most of your shows? Dramas?
Alex Berger:
It depends on the budget of the show. Blind Spots started as nine and then was eight and a half and some tandem days and by the end was eight. They keep pulling money budget every year. Quantum Leap I think is eight.
Michael Jamin:
Interesting. And then what do you, as a writer on set for comedy when on set, it's like, I want to make sure they're playing the comedy right, making jokes, but what are you looking for that the director isn't covering?
Alex Berger:
Well, first of all, it's a lot of times if you have a great director, it's a team effort. So the director is obviously in charge of the set, but if you have a director who's collaborative, they're asking you, do you feel like that works? Or which take do you feel like was better? It's blocking work for you and your main job is just to make sure that you're the protector of the script and a protector of the story. And it's not like, excuse me, you didn't say the word there. Although there a Sorkin set, they will keep you word perfect, but it's more like, actually, I know you want to change that line. It doesn't feel comfortable in your mouth, but it's really important that you say this. It's going to set something up that we're doing in three episodes, or Hey, just so you know, when you're saying this to this character, you're actually lying and you're going to be revealed to be.
It's a lot of making sure that everybody knows the episode up to the episodes we're leading to. And then, yeah, there's still a lot of shows I've worked on have a fair amount of comedy. So you're still making sure jokes, land and actors, this doesn't feel comfortable in my mouth. Do you mind if I say it like this? Or if you work with an actor who wants to have a little bit and wants to assert a line, sometimes I need to be the one to say, okay, well then that means that this person needs to say this line after to keep a joke going.
Michael Jamin:
Right? Right. It's interesting, and especially when scenes are shot out of order, it is easy for actors to lose track of where they are in the story. So that is the
Alex Berger:
Part I really like is Prep, because I've worked on a lot of big shows, big action shows and into you fly to New York with your script in hand and you're so excited. And then the first thing that the line producer tells you every single time is, we're $400,000 over budget. Before you even say hello. The fun part to me is the puzzle of how do you protect the story with the constraints of we can't shoot this in nine days. I've walked into episodes that were supposed to be seven day shoots, and the board came out and it was 10 days. And so you've got to figure out, okay, we can move this back into the house so we can take this care, we can do this here. And actually the shootout that happens after the bank robbery, maybe that happens off screen, stuff like that.
Michael Jamin:
So are you doing a lot of rewriting on set then?
Alex Berger:
It's usually in prep.
Michael Jamin:
Okay. In prep,
Alex Berger:
By the time you're on set in a drama, you're pretty close to set to go unless something changes or an actor nowadays, if an actor gets covid, then all of a sudden you're taking that actor out of the scene and rewriting the scenes and why are they, that kind of thing.
Michael Jamin:
And then are your showrunners ever on any of these shows ever on set? Or are they always sending proxies? Yeah, it
Alex Berger:
Depends. It depends on the show. So typically on the shows that I've been on, the showrunner, the showrunner was there for the pilot. They're usually going to go for 1 0 2 just to, it's been four months and they want to reestablish a tone and kind of be a leader, and then they'll try to pop in and out a bunch during the year so that it's not like they're just coming when there's a problem. And then when the show's in la, the showrunner will usually try to pop by after set, especially if before the Zoom Room thing, the writer's room would wrap at seven, the production's still going, so they usually come for the last couple scenes, something like that.
Michael Jamin:
How many writers are there usually on these hour shows?
Alex Berger:
I mean, I'm curious to hear what your answer is for comedy too, because it's really shrinking in the beginning. I mean, Glen Martin was what, 10, 12, something like that, including if you're Partners is too, and then it's gotten down to 10 and then eight. And then I think Quantum Leap were about 10, which is a big staff, but the Netflix show I just worked on was six. The show, the Assets that I did, which was a limited series was five. And this is a lot of big issues of the strike is these rooms are getting too small. What are the root comedy rooms like now? Because I know there's been, it's like sometimes it's like 25 people in a room
Michael Jamin:
Well, on animation, but I think those days are kind of over
Alex Berger:
Or big network sitcoms aren't there.
Michael Jamin:
I don't think they're that big. I don't think there aren't big network sitcoms anymore, but I don't think, I mean it was never,
Alex Berger:
What was the Tacoma room?
Michael Jamin:
Oh, it's probably eight or so. But that's a small cable show,
Alex Berger:
But they're all small. I think they're all like that now. Even the network comedies, unless you're Abbott, they're all 13 or eight or
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, I think even just shoot me back in. This was in the day, I want to say maybe 10 or 12 times. Oh really? That's it. Yeah. Yeah, Roseanne. Roseanne was famously Big. Fred had a big staff, but that was Roseanne. It was a giant show.
Alex Berger:
And The Simpsons, I know there's these shows that have the two, I mean the drama rooms, there's a bunch of writers who having a big staff and then they like to split the room in two and break two episodes at the same time. A lot of showrunners actually want a small staff and hate having too many voices. I like a big room. I like eight to 10 people because you're always in a drama room, especially you've always got one writer on set, two writers on draft sometimes set, so there's three or four people gone every single day. So your room thins out real fast, and I think you need at least five people to break a story.
Michael Jamin:
Oh yeah. Now the thing is, you're a funny guy. You have a good sense of humor. You started in comedy, but do you miss at all comedy or do you feel I'm a fish in water with drama?
Alex Berger:
Yeah, I was in over my head in comedy, I be the guy who can do a little bit of comedy on a drama staff than that guy in a comedy room who's mostly focused on story. I mean, I felt like, obviously I wrote Pilot and I felt like I had a voice on that show, but it was clear to me that this was not the type of show that I was going to be thriving at. I really enjoyed it, but it was like just comedy wasn't my thing. I love writing on a Funny One Hour, Franklin and Bash, which was a legal show, was essentially a comedy that had the stakes of a drama, but the tone of a comedy. And I love because I like being able to go to the serious scene to have the emotional he, to not have to have a joke at the end of every scene. And then I've written some pilots and stuff that have a fair amount of comedy, but I always want, and I've written half hour dramas. It's just I want the pressure of three jokes a page and beating a joke and beating a joke and beating a joke. It just wasn't my pace.
Michael Jamin:
Well, I got to say, I think it was probably the last script you wrote was you and Pava teamed up to write a Christmas episode. Oh yeah. And you guys crushed it. I remember coming back, you guys turned it in, whatever you guys did together, were like, you guys, you're going to do this together. Probably because PA wanted to write a musical. I was like, Papa, I'm not writing a musical. And he probably did, but you guys turned in a great draft. And I was like, if that show had gone, I'd be like, I remember thinking, well, these guys are going to be stuck in a room together for a long time. Because yeah,
Alex Berger:
That was a lot of fun. That was a lot of fun. And it's funny, I want to show my kids the show. They're really young and there's not a lot of episodes that are appropriate for little, that one's pretty tame. That one's pretty tame. We did a rom-com parody sort, the Wedding planner parody, and then we did a, what was it? I forget the other ones. It was a lot of fun.
Michael Jamin:
Oh yeah. What is nutty stuff? So now the dramas, I'm sorry. When you go off to write your own pilots, when you're developing your own, is there a unifying theme tone that you like to pitch? Yeah,
Alex Berger:
I would say two things. One is fun. I don't want to write some things super dark. I don't want to write. I like watching shows like that. I watch Last Of Us and The Leftovers and a lot of shows that are real bleak and I really enjoy them. But when I'm living in the world for 12 hours a day, for eight years, I want it to be fun. I want to have a certain amount of lightness to it and sort of levity to it, which is not to say it has to be a comedy, it can still be a drama. There just needs to be something fun about it. And even when I'm writing on a show like Quantum Leap, we've had episodes that are really serious, but the ones that I do, I try to make them, I did an airplane hijacking episode, but I tried to make it fun and sort of like an eighties action movie. And then the other thing I would say is sort of optimism. I try to write something that makes you think that the world is going to be a better place. I've written a lot of political shows and politics is pretty dark these days. One, my take is sort of, but if we do this, we can all get through it. None of those have gotten on the air. So maybe that says something about what people feel about optimism these days.
Michael Jamin:
Well, it's also a numbers game, but how do you feel, let's say you were given the keys to run your show, got on the air somewhere, eight episodes on the air. How do you feel? Feel about that? Yeah, let's do it. I'm ready. Or like, oh my God, what did I get?
Alex Berger:
Both. I mean, I did the Writer's Guild showrunner training program a couple of years ago, which is phenomenal. What
Michael Jamin:
Was that? Tell me all about
Alex Berger:
That. It was great. But so essentially it's a six week every Saturday, all day, every Saturday college course on how to run a show. And it's run by Jeff Melvoin, who's a really seasoned showrunner, and Carol Kirschner, who's been working in the business forever. And then they bring in John Wells is usually a big part of the program and they bring in really heavy hitter showrunners all the way down to people who were in the program last year and then got a show on the year. And they're like, bill and Ted when they come back at the time Machine and Bill and Ted's, and they're like, you're in for a crazy journey. And so it's really cool to hear from all of those people and they focus one day is on writing, one day is on post one day on production. And what I learned from that was having been on staffs for something like 250 episodes of tv, I've learned basically all the things you can do in terms of book learning to run a show.
But the last 20%, you can't learn until you're there. Sort of like if you read a hundred books about swimming, you kind of know how to swim, but if you dropped out of a helicopter ocean, you're going to have to figure it out and you're going to be drowning while you're doing it. And literally, I don't know if this was your experience when you guys had it, but every other show I've talked to says nothing fully prepares you for it. So I have a couple shows in development right now, and if you told me that they were to go, I think the first feeling would be utter terror and like, okay, let's do it. Let's go. This is the time to do it. And I've run a lot of writers' rooms and stuff like that, but I've never actually had the keys to the castle, so
Michael Jamin:
Interesting. Right. Okay, so you've run the room, you've been breaking stories, you're in charge of that. Now time in terms of tell me about the short run is problem You apply, how do you get in?
Alex Berger:
You have to be recommended by somebody and applied and they want someone, they're trying to find people who are the next shows up. And so people in the program have a pilot that's already been shot and that's already ordered a series, but they don't know how to run a show. You people who've worked in features or worked in writing novels who are transitioning into television. So all the production stuff to them is totally new. And then you have lot of people like me who sort came up as staff writer, story editor and just worked their way up the ranks who've been around for a while, who just haven't taken that next step, who want to know more about what it's like to run a show. I loved it. First of all, it was like being in college, man, it was just absorbing material and taking notes at a frantic pace and reading that they recommended. But it was just so interesting to hear. It's like this, your podcast is so great because you could hear people speak, but these are people who are specifically targeted at the demographic of you're a co eep and you're about to run a show. Here's what you need to know.
Michael Jamin:
And so you don't pay for this, right? Or you
Alex Berger:
Do, the guild pays for it and the studios pay for it. It's a phenomenal program.
Michael Jamin:
And then it's so interesting. And then, alright, so then how big of a cohort, how big of a group is
Alex Berger:
It? 30. And it's a bummer because these days it's been on Zoom and so you don't really get to the year. I did it in 2017 or 2018. And so I got to know those folks and they were sort of, yeah, again, my cohort and three quarters of them are running shows and everybody else's EPS or eps, running rooms. It's a very fun dynamic to have a group.
Michael Jamin:
What are they teaching you? I'm so curious as what they teach you. I bet there's stuff I don't know. And we've done three shows. What are they teaching you about post that you were surprised?
Alex Berger:
The overwhelming, the first thing they tell you when you walk in the door is quality scripts on time. The bug that they gave me, the showrunner program, quality scripts on time, and that was basically the theme of it was being efficient, being and knowing when to cut your losses and say move on. And knowing when to say this isn't good enough. And so for posts, it's like, are you the type of person who wants to be in post for 10 hours a day? That's fine, but then you need to have somebody who's going to be overrunning the room, or do you want the writer who produced the episode to do the first and the second cut? And then you do the last cut and they bring in editors and they talk, editors tell you about what they want to hear. A lot of things that I'd been in post a lot before I was in that room and then editors were telling me things that I was doing that annoyed the crap out of them. And I was like, oh, little thing like what? Snapping, when you say cut there,
Michael Jamin:
Oh,
Alex Berger:
That annoys.
Michael Jamin:
That annoys them. It's like a dog
Alex Berger:
Thing. Yeah, exactly. And a lot of editors, some editors want line notes. Some editors want you to say, this scene doesn't feel funny enough, I'm not getting the comedy. And then they'll say, okay, let me take another swing at it. And you need to feel like, is this the type of editor that wants to do it on their own or that type of showrunner that wants to do that. But broadly speaking, it's essentially a leadership training program. The nuts and bolts stuff with all stuff that I had seen up close being a lieutenant on a show, there are a lot of little tips that I picked up here and there and when I get a show, I will go back to my notebook and frantically look through it, but it's mostly about how do you lead, how do you manage, how do you fire people? How do you delegate? How do you tell people that they're not doing a good enough job but give 'em a second chance? Interesting. They bring a lot of directors in, stuff like that.
Michael Jamin:
What was the last thing you
Alex Berger:
Said? How to interview a director? How to interview director. A big director came in and talked to you. Here's some questions you should ask when you're interviewing. Here's a great one that they said. They said, when you're interviewing a director, ask if you're the showrunner and you're interviewing somebody who's coming in to do an episode of your show, ask the director, do you cook? And if so, are you a person who uses a recipe or do you like to improvise? And there's no right answers to that, right? But if you cook and you're the person who is going to measure out the exact number of grams of flour and the exact number of grams of sugar, that's kind of how you're going to approach directing. You're going to come in with a shot list, you're going to be going to stay on time, you're going to make sure that you move the set along. And if you're the person who likes to kind of throw a little salt to throw a little sugar, you might be a little more improvisational. I say you might be a little more, more. There's little things like that that are like how to dig in on this with those people.
Michael Jamin:
Now I'm learning. What else can you share with me that
Alex Berger:
Might be helpful? I can get my notebook you,
Michael Jamin:
Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.
I remember when we're running Glen Martin, which is the first show we ran a lot of this, and you probably weren't even aware of this, A lot of it was me. If I was at the board or whatever, it was me like, okay, I want to make sure I'm not losing the room. I want to make sure everyone, no one's losing focus. And I think part of that was make a decision even if it's a bad one because you can lose the room if you can't pull the trigger. You know what I'm saying? It's so frustrating. You guys
Alex Berger:
Did a good job with that. And then I think that decisiveness, I think is actually one of the most important qualities in the showrunner, but also willingness to admit you were wrong if you made a decision and moved on and then a day later you realize you were wrong. You have to and say, I made the wrong decision. And one of the things I've learned running that I've really tried to do when I'm running a room is if there's an idea floating around that I hate, but it's getting energy and it's getting excitement, I try not to step on it until it either burns out on its own or it's reached a critical mass and I'm like, look, I think this is not going to work, but let's talk it out because there's nothing worse as having come up on staffs. And this is one of the most valuable things when you've been a staff writer and a story editor as opposed to getting your own show as the first thing that happens to you is you know how demoralizing it is when everybody's super excited about something now it's not going to work. It's so demoralizing. Yes, A lot of times you think it's not going to work. You just sit there back and listen for 20 minutes and you're like, oh, actually, you know what? There is a version of this that'll work if I just add this one thing. It's an organism and you're leading an organism and it's very hard. You guys did a great, and you guys are a team, which is even harder because you've got to read each other's minds about
This works.
Michael Jamin:
You bring a good point. I remember one time, so when Glen Martin, I would go, I would direct the actors on Wednesdays or whatever and see would be running the room, and I remember coming back at the end of a long day directing, come back to the room and you guys had made a lot of progress on the script and everyone's excited. Everyone's excited about this idea and you guys pitched it to me. I wasn't getting it. I didn't get it. I was like, I didn't want to shit on it because I could tell everyone was so excited about it. And so I just kept on asking questions just to explain it to me so that I would get on board.
Alex Berger:
That's a really hard part is and because I've never been the actual showrunner, I've never been the one, I would be like, I'm sorry we're vetoing this. A lot of times what I would do, because I was a number two, was if I hated something, if I left the room and then I came back and I hated something, I'd be like, look, I'm not totally on board with this idea, but let's give it its day in short and let's pitch it to the showrunner. And I would try, when I would pitch it to the showrunner be to not give away which side I was on or to say, look, here's one side of the argument, here's the other side of the argument. But when it's ultimately up to you, it is hard because I always analogize it to in Family Feud when the first four people give their answer and then that last person has to give the final answer and they want to go against the rest of the family. It's a hard thing to do. You're wrong.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah,
Alex Berger:
I guess, I don't know. What was that experience like for you? Did you feel like it was like you had to balance? What was your favorite idea versus losing another 10 people's morale?
Michael Jamin:
It wasn't even about my favorite idea. It was more like I just want to make sure if sea's on board than I trust, I trust him. But it's also like I wish I can remember what the episode was. It just didn't make any
Alex Berger:
Sense to me. No, I remember that a couple times. Every show I've ever been on has had that. Every show I've ever, the showrunners left the room, the room gets excited about, something comes back in and it's not what they want, it's just part of show running. The value of having a staff that's been together for a while is the longer the staff has been together, the more you can say, oh, secret and Michael are going to hate this. We shouldn't even this path. Versus early on, you're going down a million paths you don't know. But once you get to know the showrunner, you kind of get to know what they like and what they don't like.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. There was another idea that we had in that, I don't remember what we were all on board, but Seaver wasn't on board. It was something crazy.
Alex Berger:
Oh, I think it was the radio episode and there was something about wires or no wires, and they weren't recording the music the whole time,
Michael Jamin:
Who wasn't recording music.
Alex Berger:
Glen went to, you got to cut this out of the podcast.
Michael Jamin:
No one's going to care. But
Alex Berger:
It was like there were a lot of room bits that I think that's the problem with room bits is they take on a life of their own and then they're an inside joke. And if the runner comes in and there's a room bit in the script, it's an inside joke. It just doesn't work. You weren't there for the beginning of it, which is a good sign that it's not a good story because the audience wasn't there for it either. But I think it was Glen becomes a radio producer named Stacey Rappaport.
Michael Jamin:
Yes.
Alex Berger:
His wife was also named Stacey Rappaport. Yes. And I know he works for Stacey Rappaport. And anyway, the whole time it was the, you guys were doing the Brady Bunch, Johnny Bravo episode basically as a
Michael Jamin:
Yeah,
Alex Berger:
Remember the debate was like, were they actually recording by the way? I will say again, you can cut this out early, but it's not relevant at all. But I grew up watching the Brady Bunch for whatever reason, even though I'm 10 years younger than you guys. And that was number one reference that you guys talked about. So I did feel like at least I got those references.
Michael Jamin:
Oh, it's so funny. I remember that. I remember because I think I was the one who pitched the name Stacey Rappaport.
Alex Berger:
I remember because I had a friend named Stacey
Michael Jamin:
Rappaport. Oh really? That's so funny. It was just a man's name that the joke was that Glen was going to choose a new identity for himself and he chooses a woman's name.
Alex Berger:
What have you gone back and just watched full episodes of the show?
Michael Jamin:
No. And everyone, people want to know about. People ask me that a lot. I don't touch. I should. I love that show, but I don't touch anything that I've written. I just don't. It's over and I don't know why, but you do
Alex Berger:
Just not even about Glen Martin. That is an interesting thing about writers is whether they want to go back. I go back and watch stuff and I hate it because I'm like, but because Glen Martin was not really mine. It was such an organism of the room. I laugh when I go back and watch it except the one I wrote, which I don't like.
Michael Jamin:
Oh my God. We had some fun in that show. But okay, so when you take, I have so many questions for you. When you were young, when you were a kid, did you want to be a writer? I know Time
Alex Berger:
Know was a profession. I loved television. I was a youngest kid. I was raised by the Cosby Show and the Brady Bunch and G I F. And my idea of a family was basically what those families were probably to go back, rethink the Cosby one. And then even in college, I interned at Saturday Night Live and late night with Conan O'Brien back when he was on, which were fantasy camp, especially the s and l one was truly a dream come true. And it still didn't occur to me that it was a profession that I could go do. I was go to law school and then a buddy of mine, we were in Jerry's Subs and Pizza, which is an East coast person you probably remember. And we were sitting there talking about what we're going to do and he's like, like I said, I'm going to go to LA and be a writer. And I said, how do you do that? And he said, someone writes this stuff, why couldn't it be us? And it just gave me this epiphany of like, oh yeah, everybody who's out there as a writer at some point wasn't a writer and just got out there and learned how to do it. And so we all went out together and we kind of got our start.
Michael Jamin:
Did your friend become a writer too?
Alex Berger:
Yeah, we all ended up creating a show together. So the earliest thing that we did was we were on the high school debate team together and we walked into National Lampoon, which at the time was doing low budget cable programming, and the head creative guy there just made fun of my resume the entire time and made fun of debate. And then by the end of it said, there's a show here. And so we came, pitched him a show called Master Debaters that was a debating society, and we ended up getting to make, it was like our film school. I knew nothing about how to make a TV show and that one, I was throwing the keys to the castle. I was casting it, writing it, producing it. I was in it, posting it with every crisis. But it was so low stakes because the budgets were tiny and they were in syndicated cable stations and college campuses. No one would watch me. So I got to learn by doing and I loved it. It was great.
Michael Jamin:
Interesting. And then, all right, so then you became a writer and then you just kept on writing. I guess mean it's not an easy path, but you've made a really pretty good name for yourself over the years.
Alex Berger:
Yeah, I mean, thank you. It was a winding path when I came out, I thought for a minute I might want to be a development executive. I read a book by this guy, Brandon Tartikoff, who used to run N B C called The Last Great. It was like basically made it out to be, you're sitting in your room and the smartest people in the world come and tell you what TV show ideas they have, and then you pick the eight of them and pick the order in America Shears. And so I worked in development for a minute and I was not what it was like at all, and I was miserable and I was jealous of all the writers who were coming in. So I said, that's the job I want. And so I quit. What
Michael Jamin:
Was it I didn't know you worked at VO for? I was
Alex Berger:
Assistant. I was an assistant in development at N B C.
Michael Jamin:
What was it like then?
Alex Berger:
It's very busy and not as creative as I wanted to be. I actually really enjoyed the conversations I had with the executives when it wasn't time to do my job and it was just time to talk about tv. But the actual job I was doing, I was terrible at, I mean, it was a lot of keeping track of who was calling, and I'm an absentminded first, but
Michael Jamin:
That you're an assistant. I mean, surely
Alex Berger:
You, but it's a long time before your branded Tartikoff, right? Almost everybody else under branded Tartikoff has a lot of business responsibilities to do. And it wasn't, that's not how my brain works. My brain needs more free time. I think if I worked at a place that was smaller that was incubating three or four shows, I probably would've enjoyed it more. But we had 50 comedies and 50 dramas in development, and I was trying to get of all of them and who was calling and the letterhead changing and all this stuff. And it was just like I was not good at it. I mean, my boss even said to me one day, he said, you're a very smart guy. Why are you not very good at this? And we had a nice conversation about that. But the main thing was the writers that came in that I was, can I get you a coffee?
Can I get you a tea? Can I get you a Coke? I was so jealous of them. Door would close to the pitch, and I just wanted to be in there listening to. And so I realized I should follow that. And so I didn't last that long. I left like eight months and I quit. I at the time had been, I think had a couple of writing jobs, like smaller writing jobs lined up that show Master Debaters had been optioned of VH one. So we were writing a pilot for VH one and a couple of their small writing jobs. So I went to go do those and then got back in the beginning of the line as an assistant, I was a writer's assistant on a show, and then I was an assistant to a showrunner and then I stop.
Michael Jamin:
So it's a brave move for you to leave that behind in.
Alex Berger:
It was definitely, I mean, I had some stuff lined up, but it was definitely a risk, but I just knew it wasn't the right, I was in the wrong place. But it's interesting, it was an incredible learning experience. I knew how development work from the inside, and I still think I know more about what's actually going on at the network than a lot of my peers because I was on the other side. And then the folks I met who are the other assistants to the other executives are now all executive vice presidents of networks or presidents of networks or I met my agent because he was an assistant to an agent that used to call, and then he signed me while he was still a coordinator. One of the people on that hall now became the president of Fox, another one who I've dealt with a lot became the president of N B C. I met a ton of great folks through that who have become friends and allies over the years, and I sold Joe to,
Michael Jamin:
But okay, so it's probably changed lot since you were in assistant that was probably 20 something
Alex Berger:
Years ago, 19 years
Michael Jamin:
Ago. So what is it like then that we don't understand?
Alex Berger:
I think the main thing that I didn't understand, and this has for sure changed and certainly in cable and streaming is just a volume. They are not spending as much time thinking about your script as you are by definition. But in development, there are literally 40 to 50 scripts at least back then on both on comedy and trauma. And so my boss, who was in charge of both has a hundred scripts to keep track of. So he was very smart and could make a judgment very quickly about a script, but he would read it once, sometimes read it again, and then he was making a judgment about whether it was a show. So as a writer now I know they're reading fast, they're reading it at three 30 in the morning, or they're reading it on the plane, I've got to grab attention fast, I've got to hook you in. I cannot lean, oh, the great twist, wait till the Great Twist. It's on page 55. And when I'm pitching, it's the same thing my boss said to me, I hear 300 pitches a year. I typically hear about five ideas I haven't heard before. The other 95 I've heard before. It's about take, it's about the writer, it's about their passion. And so when I go and pitch an idea, the substance of the idea is the second most important thing. And my connection to it and why it has to be me is the first most important.
Michael Jamin:
And that's the hard part. I feel that's the hard part because usually you think of an idea, you can't really, I don't know, you're a hundred percent right. They always, they want to know why are you the only one in the world who can write this idea truthfully? It's like a lot of times you're not a lot of times like, well, this is the characters we created. It's a funny situation, but there's probably a lot of people who could write this idea.
Alex Berger:
I think that what I have seen, and I've never done this, but I know folks who have is, I knew a writer once who his sort of why me paragraph was, I just run a show for a bunch of years. I came off of running that show and I didn't know what I wanted to do next and I had an identity crisis. And so it got to the idea of identity crises and here's a spy show, an action spy show, but at the center of it as a character going through an identity crisis. So it's not
Michael Jamin:
Grew
Alex Berger:
Up and my dad was a spy, and therefore sometimes it's emotional or sometimes I had this interaction with a guy on the subway and I couldn't stop thinking about it. And it led me to this show. And sometimes by the way, you retrofitted sometimes you already come up to the show and then you've got to come up with that first paragraph that's retrofitted and sometimes often it feels organic even though it was come up with that
Michael Jamin:
Word. That's so interesting because I'm glad you said that to me. It almost sounds, it gives me some soce knowing that, because a lot of times we'll say, okay, this is why we're the only ones, and this is from seabird's idea home life or my home life, and then it doesn't sell. And you're like, well, I don't know what to do now. But you're actually broadening it out into a thematically, it's more personal to you. It's not necessarily a dynamic. It's more like,
Alex Berger:
Here's how I think about it. I think that, and I could be wrong, and by the way, it's different in a comedy because you've got to make 'em laugh in a comedy, and I know certain comedy executives don't laugh, but for the most, if you're funny in the room, they're thinking, okay, I want to be in business with these pets, but in drama, are there twists and turns? Am I hooked on this? Is this going to fit with something that we have on the air? Do we have something similar? But I always think what they're going to remember when they've heard six, they hear six to eight a day, and then at the end of the week they go tell their bosses about the ones that they bought. So what they're going to remember is, oh my God, you'll never believe the story this guy told about the time that he was held hostage on the subway, or you'll never believe that, or a cool twist or a cool character. They're not ever going to remember the third beat of the pilot, or when pitch episode ideas, here's so
Michael Jamin:
Interesting.
Alex Berger:
I think you need that stuff to be in there, but what they're going to remember, it's like when you walk into a house, when you're looking for a house, you remember, oh, I was dazzled by the kitchen and the master bedroom had the fullest bathroom and yeah, yeah, it had five bedrooms and five baths, which is what we need. But it felt like this when I walked in. It's like, how do they feel? That's another, I'm sorry to ramble, but
Michael Jamin:
No,
Alex Berger:
For drama. I think in a pitch, if you can make the executives feel how the show is going to make them feel, that's a successful pitch to me. Comedy's a little different, I think. But
Michael Jamin:
Interesting. I feel like I'm learning a lot from you actually, because I mean, honestly, we'll sell shows and we'll not sell shows.
Alex Berger:
We're learning all that time from you guys for 40 episodes on the murder.
Michael Jamin:
But a lot of this is, like I said, we will sell a show or we won't sell a show, and I won't know why. I don't know. I'm not sure why this one sold this one, the other one didn't sell. I can, but that's
Alex Berger:
Why I really don't like Zoom pitches because you can't. I love, that's actually my favorite part. I think it comes from, like I said, I was on the debate team in high school and college, and I loved trying to persuade someone who was not necessarily on my side at the beginning that I'm right. And I viewed every pitch as a miniature debate. I'm debating against the person who says, don't buy this. And I love the feeling of like, oh, I've got them hooked, and they're now, they are going to buy the show as long as it continues to go on this pace. And I hate the feeling of, I think they've checked out. And actually when I've memorized a pitch, when I think they've checked out, I'm talking, but my internal monologue is, well, I guess we didn't sell it to Fox. All right, well, if we can sell it to Fox, we can go to a B, C. Because I'm sort of like, I've moved on.
Michael Jamin:
How much off book are you have notes or not?
Alex Berger:
I've developed this method that I got from this guy, Martin Garra, who I've worked for eight or nine years for some blind spot, and now on Quantum Leap, it's different, but I love it, which is, it's different on Zoom, but when we go back to in-person pitches, what he does is he brings in his laptop and he puts it on the table in front of him and it acts as a teleprompter. And so he's looking up at you making eye contact and occasionally looking down. And then he is got a remote that flips page to page and the script is there word for word. So if you're like, oh shit, I'm about to get to the part that I always mess up, then you just look down and read for a minute and they know you've written this. It's not like no one is under the illusion that you walked in and RIFed for 20 minutes off the
Michael Jamin:
Topic. Does he do this in person or on Zoom?
Alex Berger:
Both. On Zoom, it's so easy because you can have your screen, but in person, I thought, oh, they're going to think it's offputting. But because I was practiced, I got to the point where 70% of it was eye contact and the laptop was there as the security one did.
Michael Jamin:
And what program is he using? That's a teleprompter
Alex Berger:
Work.
Michael Jamin:
Oh, so you're just scrolling. Oh, you're just clicking.
Alex Berger:
There's this Bluetooth remote that he uses that I was now in my drawer, and it's just you click and it's to the next
Michael Jamin:
Page. You have a Bluetooth remote that works on your lap. I didn't even know this such a thing. I'm learning so much from you Burger.
Alex Berger:
Oh, you know what? I've lost it. Oh, here. Yeah, so it's like a little U S B that plugs into the back of your computer, and then you're just like, you click, click, click and it's, you look like you're giving its head talk it 5% easy. And I actually think in a comedy pitch, it might come off as too dorky, but for a drama it's like, I'm going to tell you a story. I'm going to deliver a pitch. And I wrote it. And the reason I find it useful is a lot of times when you're developing with the pod and the studio and then also the non-writing show runner, so many Sunday night, you're getting notes for a Monday morning pitch and stuff's changed. So if I get to the section that just changed, I might look down a little bit more
Michael Jamin:
Interest. So I was going to say, are you going in mostly with pods these days for people who don't know that they're producers on the overall deals at studios, but is that how it works in dramas as well?
Alex Berger:
I don't think I'm going to show on the air anymore without an entourage. So when I was on Blind Spot, it was produced by Greg Ante and I did a couple pieces of development with him and then also with Blind Spot. I just think there's the business side of it, which is that these networks want to be in business with their 800 pound gorillas and the not. So if you walk in with one of them, even if it's my vision a hundred percent, and it's my personal story, the fact that this brand is behind it really helps. And then I also, I actually enjoy the process of crafting the idea with smart people. I don't want to work with a pod who's annoying and gives dumb notes or a studio who does that. But every pod I've ever worked with, if I'm stuck on an idea, I'll say, Hey, can we hop on the phone for half an hour and work out this story problem? You guys have each other so you can get in a room and hash out a story problem. But I need to talk. I cannot think through any
Michael Jamin:
Interesting,
Alex Berger:
And we'll work it out. Oh,
Michael Jamin:
So you'll really use them as a resource. It's so interesting.
Alex Berger:
I mean, this guy, Martin Garrow who runs Blind Spot Quantum Leap, I've developed him a bunch of times and he's a writer.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, it's different
Alex Berger:
Stuff is acting as a pod. But I can call him and we have such a shorthand, we've broken 150 episodes a week, but
Michael Jamin:
That's different because he's a writer. He is not, I mean, he's a writer, is writer producer, but he's really a
Alex Berger:
Writer. So it's Greg Ante. I like working with folks who are on the creative things, and I've worked with producers who weren't writers, but could be because they're a creative, the worst part of that development is when someone gives you a note and they don't realize, oh, that's going to unravel. They think it's two lines, but it actually unravel all. Whereas when you work with people who've made a lot of tv, they're like, look, I know that this blows everything up to do this one little thing, but here's why I think it's better. Or Hey, they gave a huge note. Here's easy fix. It's only two lines.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, I mean, that's so interesting. You're absolutely right. There's a huge difference between, I think between working with a producer, producer and a writer producer, because the writers, they just know what's going to unravel everything. I don't know. Yeah, that's Producers
Alex Berger:
Are good for like, oh, you know what? Who'd be great for this is this actress. And they make the call and they're good.
I find that you find everybody's in this business, they're good at something. Nobody who's come to this business and is just dashing a check. Well, probably not true, but the people that I try to find work with are people who are in this business smart. And even if they're not totally up on exactly what I wanted to do, fix the script, they have something that they're really good at that I want to use. So even if it's, there's one person at this company who's mostly the production person have a really good idea about like, Hey, if we shot this in Buffalo, we could do this.
Michael Jamin:
Right. Interesting. Wow. I think I've learned a lot from you. Before we conclude, you want to write drama with
Alex Berger:
Me? Let's go that. Let's talk about drama.
Michael Jamin:
I think I'm going to get into the drama business with you. I think you're going to be my pod. What advice do you have for young writers? You must have something to Wise to say.
Alex Berger:
Yeah, I mean, I probably don't have anything wise to say, but I'm happy
Michael Jamin:
To. Or how are they breaking in the business?
Alex Berger:
It's funny. The answer was so different 10 years ago to four years ago. It changed rapidly, and it's very different now because of the writer's strike. So if you're talking about what should I be doing right now, if I want to break in? I was just talking to a writer today and my advice to her was, just use this time to write. It's not a good time to try to get a producer attached or a showrunner attached or an agent. It's a good time to just be writing and really writing diligently. And then this is over. And in general, my advice is get a job in the industry, even if it's as an assistant. If you can't get a job as an assistant in a room, get a job as an assistant in post or get a job as a PA on set, just get into the room. Then just keep building a network and talking to everybody. And when your cousin comes and says, you know what? I used my college roommate, I think as a writer, I don't know what he take them up on all of those opportunities because you never know what's going to result in something. The first three jobs I got were from general meetings that I didn't want to take because actually two of them were from people. My mom had met
Parties in Washington dc but they were another assistant who was leaving their job and happened to open up. And then the last thing I would say is, I think the thing that people don't do as much of it that they should do is engage in the continuing education piece of this. So your listeners to your podcast are obviously trying to learn how to write, and that's important. There's a lot of other good podcasts out there. There's Deadline Hollywood, which everybody should be reading every single day. There's business podcasts like The Town and the Business and Fresh Air that people should be listening to understand the macro pieces of their business. So often you get people who come out here and they have no idea how the business works, but there's film school available for free. There's 97 episodes of your show and other shows like it. And there's a lot of episodes about how the business works that I think people, you said sort of absorb
Michael Jamin:
Alex Berger, you hit it out of the park. Dude, I think this is,
Alex Berger:
I wrote it with pava.
Michael Jamin:
You wrote it with pava. You did this Screw pava. No, I found, I don't know. I hope people go back and even listen to this again and again. I think you said so many smart things in this that were even kind of new to me. And I don't know. Thank you for sharing all your knowledge. I think it was hit out
Alex Berger:
Of the park. You're doing a great service. What I love about your podcast is that you ask the question that I want everybody to ask on these podcasts, which is like, tell me your story. Tell me how you got started, and then you interrogate what the lessons are along the way. So many of these podcasts, it's like, tell me about your latest project. And essentially they just become promotion vehicles. But you dig in and you really, the 90 writers that you've had on the show, every one of their stories is different. But there's a lesson in every single one of them. And that's what I just add on to the thing that I was talking about young writers is when you hear people's stories, if you walk away with one kernel of wisdom of like, oh, they got fired off the show and they were miserable, but here's what they did wrong, and now I can take that forward, or the networking advice they gave me, or Here's the little piece of advice about how to get your way out of a scene with a cool blow line. You can pick all that stuff up from everybody that you meet.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. And I also find, because everyone wants to, everyone wants to, what's the path to breaking through the business? And I always think there's only one door. You have to go into that door, and then once you go through that door, it closes. Now the next person has to find their own door. But you can find a common characteristic that everyone has that broke into the business. So it's not like they didn't go through the one path, but they all had a same trait that they have.
Alex Berger:
I mean, perseverance. And then it sounds silly, but a lot of young writers I talk to aren't writing a lot. They have the one script that they've been polishing forever or half a script or an idea for a script, and they want to know how to break in. And by the way, I always liked that from 22 to 25, I did not, I wrote one script and was, I should have written 10 because I'm 20 years into the business now. Every script I wrote right now is leaps and bounds better than the last script I wrote because I'm still learning. And so when you're 22 or 25, or even if you're 45, breaking in, get those bad scripts out of the way early so that when you're actually being paid to write, you've gotten the phlegm out and now you're actually getting something good on the page.
Michael Jamin:
Absolutely. Before we sign off, is there anything we should plug? I mean, not really. I mean, you have Quantum Leap.
Alex Berger:
Yeah. I'll be picketing at Fox on Tuesday
Michael Jamin:
How they can find you. My wife was an actor in the original Quantum Leap. She was a guest. Oh, really? This is a long time ago. I'll
Alex Berger:
Look it up. That's so cool. I knew she was on Quantum Leap. They did like a hundred of those. That's a really rabid fan. No, I mean, quantum Link will be on in the fall, and I hope people will watch it. We've got eight episodes that we made of season two before we had to shut down, and then we have five more that we'd like to make when this is all done. If this is ever, I hope people will watch it. It's a really, it's a great show.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Thank you again, Alex Berger. Thank you again so much. Don't go anywhere. Let me just sign off. Alright, everyone, thank you. Another great episode. Listen to this one again and again, and yeah, lots of free stuff on my website. Get onto my free newsletter, all this stuff @michaeljamin.com, and that's it. Until next week. Until next, just keep writing. Okay, everyone, thanks again.
Phil Hudson:
This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar @michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.
On this week's episode, Writer/Showrunner Bill Martin (The Unicorn, The Neighborhood, 3rd Rock From The Sun, and many many more) talks about his showbiz career and starting out writing in sketch comedy then eventually transitioning over to scripted. Tune in as he also talks about his experiences working with a writing partner.
Bill Martin's IMDB Page - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0551979/
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Bill Martin:
When we got on board, we just got an overall deal with A, B, C. So we were assignable to this and we thought, this is insane. We'd love the commercials about anybody, but there's no way they're going to put on. So we thought it was just like, we'll help out a pilot, meet some new people, and then we'll do something else. It was shocking to us that they put it on tv.
Michael Jamin:
Oh, how
Bill Martin:
Interesting. Because it just seems so unlikely, but with anything you do, you know how it is. Once you're given your assignment, you've got to find a way to take pride in it.
Michael Jamin:
You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.
Hey everyone, welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I got another great guest today Actually. Ordinarily I would never have a sitcom writer who's more successful than me on my show. I out of Insecurity, but I'm doing it today to prove that I'm more magnanimous than he is. And so welcome to the show, bill Martin, whose credits are fricking crazy good and he had so many great credits. I'm going to list some of the great credits and I'm also, maybe I'll throw in some not so great credits to humble you, to keep you humble.
Bill Martin:
There are plenty of,
Michael Jamin:
But you started in Living Color and I wanted to talk about that. I love that show. But then she tv, third Rock from the Sun, grounded for Life, and I'm skipping many. Okay, cavemen, the singles table. Hank How to Rock Malibu Country Soul Man, which I believe, I think we met on that and I think you guys beat us out with good reason.
Bill Martin:
That's what I'm really here for. Revenge.
Michael Jamin:
Yes. Right, right, right. Living Biblically. We'll talk about that. And the, the unicorn, the neighborhood, the unicorn, which you and your partner created and the neighborhood. Are you guys running that as well, neighborhood or no? We are. You are. Damn. What's it like to be welcome to the show and what's it like to be a working sitcom writer? What's it like working on a network TV show nowadays?
Bill Martin:
Yeah. Well, I mean, I will point out that it's fantastic and I know that because I've also been a non-working sitcom writer. Plenty. I mean, that's the awful thing about this life we've chosen is that every spring is the panic of, oh my God, am I retired? I just don't know it yet.
Michael Jamin:
What do you know? Brian Bihar? Do you know who he is?
Bill Martin:
Yes.
Michael Jamin:
He said me and he said to me that people in the business are retired seven years before they know it.
Bill Martin:
Yes.
Michael Jamin:
I hadn't heard that. I was like, oh God, is the clock
Bill Martin:
Running? I knew that makes perfect sense though. Yeah, yeah.
Michael Jamin:
But the thing is not even about staffing season anymore now you don't even know when you're not working. You just
Bill Martin:
True. True.
Michael Jamin:
So what is it like, how is it, honestly, haven't written on a network television show in many years we've been on cable or whatever, streaming. And how has it changed? How has Network changed? More notes, last notes.
Bill Martin:
That's the weird thing is it has not changed. I mean, we are preserved in Amber. The neighborhood is just the good old days. It's a big writer's room. It's run throughs, it's show nights. It's really almost unreal. When we took the job, we expected it to, COVID obviously jumbled everything up, but once the covid restricted to Lifted, it was like, oh, this is exactly the classic sitcom situation.
Michael Jamin:
See, one of my fears is that multi cameras will go away because there's so few people still doing it. I mean, do you feel that way?
Bill Martin:
Yeah, we keep thinking that they're done, but at the same time, people are still watching friends in Seinfeld and there still aren't that many single camera comedies that are that sticky with people. So I'm not sure that they're being given up on yet. I mean, there's pros and cons to them, but I think that kind of warmth that you only have when you're watching an audience show is something that people still crave.
Michael Jamin:
But I mean in terms of there's so few multi-camera shows being made now, then let's say in 10 or 15 years if they want to make more, who's going to know how to do it?
Bill Martin:
The breeding pool is, yeah, the breeding pool has shrunk to the point where we'll all be just inbred ligers. Yeah, you're right. Frankly, that's why I'm working because there's not a minor league for it anymore. Yeah, I know N B C and a BBC are trying them. They are developing them, but really right now it's Monday night on c b s and that's about it. So we are fully prepared to just turn off the lights when we leave and that'll be the end. But
Michael Jamin:
Now tell me how you broke in, because I think your first creative was living single, I mean not living single, but living color.
Bill Martin:
Living color and
Michael Jamin:
Living, which, so there was a sketch show, which huge for the young people. I mean it, Jim Carrey and all these huge stars came out of that, which you couldn't have been imagined back then. It's one of the first shows on Fox. But how did that come to be? How did you get on that?
Bill Martin:
That was purely a situation where Keenan burned through writers so fast that they were always hiring
Michael Jamin:
Really.
Bill Martin:
And we got our first agent and this says 92, and she said, there's openings that in living color. There's always opening today in living color because Kena was demanding and he was hard to work for, but it was a great job. And so we went in and pitched, and I think it was kind of a conveyor belt of new writers coming in there all the time. And we actually managed to stick for the final two years of the show and not get fired, which is a very small club for people who've worked for Keenan, I think.
Michael Jamin:
And so you put together a sketch packet. How did you even know what to do? I wouldn't know what to do to get hired in a sketch show.
Bill Martin:
It was write a couple of sketches for existing characters and write a couple of sketches that are new ideas or commercial parodies or something like
Michael Jamin:
That. And did any of those ever make it to air?
Bill Martin:
No, but I think because of how anal my partner Mike Schiff is what we came in with were very thoroughly thought out ideas. I think that's what must have impressed Keenan, was that we didn't come in pulling stuff out of our ass. We were prepared.
Michael Jamin:
It was such an amazing show. And then you went to she tv, which is interesting. That show was produced. I don't know if it's any interesting for anyone other than me and you, but it was produced by Tamara Rawitz who gave me my first Yes, she
Bill Martin:
And Tamara was also the producer of In Living Color, where she went
Michael Jamin:
There. Oh, I guess I did know that. And she, TV was another sketch show, but it didn't last very long.
Bill Martin:
Yep. No, I don't even know if they aired all the episodes. It was a summer replacement show when that was still a thing, and it was produced by George Slaughter of Laughin Fame and it felt Laughin vintage even in the mid nineties. It felt a little like a good old fashioned throwback variety show.
Michael Jamin:
Interesting. Because she went on to produce the Mike and Maddie show, and so she hired me on that and then she jumped ship. I thought she was going to be a big break in, but alright. And then Third Rock on the Sun. I should make it clear we've never even worked together, but you're one of these people. I always felt like one of these days we're going to work together and just never happened. But
Bill Martin:
Yes. And we also have the Alschuler Krinsky Bridge between us. That's right. Weirdly, they're some of my oldest friends and I've never worked with them either.
Michael Jamin:
Oh, I didn't know that
Bill Martin:
Either it's inevitable or we're like the opposite ends of a magnet that can never work together.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, right, right.
Bill Martin:
We'll find out.
Michael Jamin:
But also, yeah, Abramson Thompson, we worked with him for many years and we great guy. But alright, so then Third Rock from the Sun, another great show. Tell me a little about your experience on that.
Bill Martin:
Well, those days there were sketch writers and there were sitcom writers and we were sketch guys and we'd written lots of spec sitcoms. We couldn't get a job. We kept working on sketch shows and we had, after she tv, we actually did a House of Buggin in New York, the John Zamo.
Michael Jamin:
Right. He's great.
Bill Martin:
That was a blast. It was fun to work in New York, although our producer had to take a brown bag full of cash to some guy in Brooklyn so that we were allowed to film there. So we're kind of in Sketch jail. But Bonnie and Terry Turner, who created she TV then created Third Rock in the Sun. And because they'd come from Saturday Night Live and they'd written movies, they'd kind of done a lot of different things. They didn't have those expectations that you hire, sketch people for sketches and sitcom people for sitcom. So we had a great experience with them on ctv. So we were some of the first people they thought of for Third Rock. So they helped us break out of the sketch jail.
Michael Jamin:
And did it feel like that? Why does it feel like a sketch jail? It seems fun to me. I
Bill Martin:
Don't know. I think it's just that it took such a specific skillset to just crank out, joke, joke, joke, parody, parody, parody. I think it was just, it may not have been a bad thing. I think it was just because there weren't a lot of people who'd had a track record with it that they were desperate to find you. Yeah, I don't really know. It wasn't fair though.
Michael Jamin:
I'm
Bill Martin:
Never going back to sketch jail.
Michael Jamin:
Right. So you don't want to do that ever again. You don't want to write sketches again.
Bill Martin:
Well, I guess there aren't really any sketch shows left. The sketch shows now I think you should leave is the greatest thing I've ever seen in my life, but it doesn't need me.
Michael Jamin:
But you don't have, in other words, that craving, we've never done it. I was like, well, I wonder what that been like. But
Bill Martin:
Yeah, sometimes the idea for a fun parody, it's still hits you every so often and there's just no place for parity other than that. So yeah, I do find myself saying, oh, that's a good idea. I hope Saturday Night Live does that
Michael Jamin:
Because
Bill Martin:
That's kind of the last game in town,
Michael Jamin:
But it's a whole new skillset that you had to learn. I mean, what was that jump like to go into scripted narrative to television?
Bill Martin:
Actually, it was pretty easy just because that's what we set out to do when I met Mike in film school in New York, and we were just cheers fanatics. And so we had written seven or eight sitcom specs before we got that job at a leaving color. So it was all we wanted to do it just that Keller was a job we could get.
Michael Jamin:
Right.
Bill Martin:
Interesting.
Michael Jamin:
We worked with the Stein Kelner who ran Cheers a couple of years. Oh yeah. To me that was so exciting to be, I don't know, because I love Cheers. Cheers was everything. That's why I wanted to be a sit car writer. It was so exciting to be able work. By the way,
Bill Martin:
Our cheer spec, the plot of it was was a John Henry man versus Machine Cliff Klavin racing a fax machine. That's how long ago it was. So
Michael Jamin:
One of the words
Bill Martin:
That was a legit idea.
Michael Jamin:
So he would deliver a letter faster than a fax machine could.
Bill Martin:
He claimed he could beat a fax
Michael Jamin:
Machine. That's funny.
Bill Martin:
The fax machine still took 18 seconds, but it was faster than Cliff.
Michael Jamin:
That's pretty funny. I like that idea. Oh, well. So then tell me your career. Honestly, you've so many shows way more than we have, so, so then you just jump after Third Rock. How many seasons were you there? You were four Seasons?
Bill Martin:
Five.
Michael Jamin:
Five until the end.
Bill Martin:
Yeah, halfway through our fifth season we left to create Grounded for Life, but it was all at the Car Seat Warner Company, so we didn't really say goodbye. We just moved one building over.
Michael Jamin:
Now it's so interesting because what was creating that life? Because back then, back then you might leave a hit show to create your own show. I'm not sure you'd
Bill Martin:
Do that to Yeah, no, I think And we didn't know better. And because it was all part of Cari Warner, the risks were low. If it had failed, we could've gone back to Third Rock. I assume
Maybe It felt like we had a net, at least we weren't jumping ship completely. But because at that point, Cy Werner had five or six shows on networks. They owned network comedy, and we thought, and we pitched the show and it sold that, oh, this is easy. You just have an idea. And then Ly Warner puts it on tv. It's great. We were batting a thousand and in very short order, we were batting a hundred and then batting 50. And we realized we had a very skewed idea about how easy the business was at that point.
Michael Jamin:
And how did you come up with that idea? Walk me through the whole process of,
Bill Martin:
Well, Mike Schiff, my partner is a bit of a jerk. He's a curmudgeon, he's a grumpy guy, and he was itching to do something different. He didn't want to just do a multicam that hit all the same notes we'd already been hitting for a while. And we went out for lunch one day with our friend Chris Kelly, who ended up writing on the show, and Chris told us a story about taking his daughter to the CAMA dome and having to wait outside the ladies room down those stairs. And it turned into a really horrible, awkward situation. And the story was just hilarious. And we came back from lunch and Mike said, why can't we make a show? That's as much fun as hearing someone tell a great story. And that's kind of the genesis of Third Rock, which was, it was a hybrid back before, the word hybrid was kind of thrown around, but it was a show where you started in the middle, something had happened and someone would say, what's going on here? How did this happen? And you'd go back and tell the story in single Cam. And so it's just a way to make stories more fun to tell, and much, much harder to produce. It was a nightmare because we'd shoot three days of single cam and then two days for the audience. So everybody you worked on, it was gratified by it, but it was hell.
Michael Jamin:
But did you think about that when you came up with it? Because that would've been on my mind, do I really want to produce this show?
Bill Martin:
At the time, we thought it was going to be a breeze.
Michael Jamin:
We
Bill Martin:
Just didn't know any better. We were young and we'd never run a single cam show before. And the problem also was directors. It was interesting. A lot of Multicam directors had no problem doing the single cam stuff, but then we had single cam directors who were absolutely gobsmacked by the Multicam, the demands, the Multicam.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, it's very
Bill Martin:
Different. It almost killed some of them. Did
Michael Jamin:
You spend a lot of, how did you divide up time on set? Was it one of you guys on set at all times or what?
Bill Martin:
Yeah, we'd always thank God we were a partnership because someone would always be on the, we had 12 hour shooting days for the single cam, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. And one of us would always be down there, and usually whatever writer had gotten their name on that episode. And then upstairs we were keeping the sausage factory.
Michael Jamin:
And while the other person's writing the scripts or rewriting whatever, let's say, let's say you're on the set and you come back, what's your involvement with those scripts? If you are not a hundred percent on board at that point, are you, how do you handle that?
Bill Martin:
Yeah, you're in a partnership that's kind of, if you don't have a lot of trust in the other person, I mean, it could be a disaster. I've heard stories about shows, I don't name them, where the creator would spend the whole day on the set and then come into the writer's room at nine o'clock at night and throw everything out, and you just can't do that. And we would have lots of disagreements, but we also, we still had table reads, so we still had a chance to try things out and fix them. At that point, a lot of single cams weren't even doing table reads. The production demands were so intense that you just had to kind of go with it. But we loved having table reads, nothing like hearing it once and getting that one day to take a whack at it. And we also had hiatus weeks, unlike a lot of single cans. So we do three, but then we'd have a week to decompress and reload, and that made it a lot more doable.
Michael Jamin:
And how many episodes were you doing in a season? Most of the time
Bill Martin:
It was crazy. We got a 13 order, but then they asked for six more and then we got a full order. But then Fox canceled us in the middle of the third season. But WB picked us up and added more episodes. So we kind of had this weird staggered thing where it could be as few as 18 as many as 21. And it was crazy.
Michael Jamin:
I remember back, I haven't done multi-camera in a while, but we were on these multi-camera shows. That's not really true. I did one kind of recently, but towards the end of that long season, if it was like you're up to 20 episodes, you're just exhausted, man, and you're like, oh, how am I going to do another one? But we never ran one. And I think the amount of stress on a showrunner for that, that must've been something else for you guys.
Bill Martin:
Yeah, it was a lot. But you know what I got to say? The stress of working on a show where the cast is difficult, even if the writing is easy, is much, much more stressful than a show where the cast is great, but the writing is hard. And that's the thing is that for me, I get stressed out, but if I go to stage and the people there are good and they appreciate what you're doing, the stress is always, you can always maintain. Right. It's when you get called to the stage and it's going to be a nightmare and someone's mad, then that's when the stress boils over.
Michael Jamin:
Right. Because then you've got to do a giant rewrite and there's no time for it. Yeah. Yeah.
Bill Martin:
We've been pretty lucky on that front. And this was Donor Logan, Kevin Corrigan and Megan Price. They were just great actors and pros and we're thrilled to be there. And if something was wrong, they trusted us. And if something wasn't working, we trusted them. So despite the fact that the workload was grim, it never destroyed us.
Michael Jamin:
Some people don't realize that. Sometimes you'll get an actor on a show who, who's not that happy to be there, even though you're paying them and they auditioned or whatever, got an offer, they're not happy to be there. So it's odd, but okay. And then Caveman, which is based, that was based on a giant hit commercial, right?
Bill Martin:
It was a hit commercial and it was a hit show. It was just one of those shows that just America embraced. They loved it. And I think it went five seasons.
Michael Jamin:
I got to check the numbers there.
Bill Martin:
I can see your face going, wait, does he?
Michael Jamin:
I got the wrong show. I'm turning Red.
Bill Martin:
Oh, yeah.
Michael Jamin:
But that must've been hard because you guys developed that as well, right?
Bill Martin:
We did not, actually, that was one where the original directors and the writer of the original commercials developed it, and the studio felt they needed some experienced hands to come in and help. So we were actually brought in during the pilot after it was already mostly cast and on the way to production. So it was kind of a runaway train at that point.
Michael Jamin:
See, I love hearing stories when other writers were being tortured.
Bill Martin:
Yes.
Michael Jamin:
That's what I'm getting at. Yes. So is that what Yeah,
Bill Martin:
It was torture. And the weird thing was it wasn't, first of all, it wasn't a bad idea, it just that because it was perceived as such a cynical idea, the knives were sharpened for it. So I don't think any of us realized how ready critics would be to hate something that was based on a commercial, because that said, the creative people behind it were all fun and interesting and good. We ended up being friends with all the guys. It wasn't a bad creative situation other than it was a fool's errand. We were being sent into the Lion Stand, and once it got into production, a single cam show with a certain, the visual stylists of the show, the guys who did the commercials really wanted to be sleek and clean and neat looking and modern, like the commercials. And that was a high bar to reach. But add to that, that every single cast member had to be in makeup for four hours before they could shoot. I mean, literally by the end of the second episode, their faces were chafed and red and they were in agony, and they were upset and met. And these were good professional actors. Like Nick Kroll, wonderful, but you can only torture a man's face so many days in a row before they go, oh my God, what's happening? So it was almost reproducible.
Michael Jamin:
But that's interesting. You said, I think you're exactly right. There's something, it was already labeled with a cynicism of like, oh, okay, it's based on a commercial and therefore it can't be any good. But did you know that when you signed up, could you even possibly have thought about that when you got on board?
Bill Martin:
Well, when we got on board, we just got an overall deal with A, B, C. So we were assignable to this, and we thought, this is insane. We love the commercials budget, anybody, but there's no way they're going to put this on. Okay. So we thought it was just like, we'll help out a pilot, meet some new people, and then we'll do something else. It was shocking to us that they put it on tv.
Michael Jamin:
Oh, how interesting.
Bill Martin:
Because it just seems so unlikely, but with anything you do, you know how it is. Once you're given your assignment, you've got to find a way to take pride in it. You can't blow it off. So we dug in and the pilot had some issues, and the first episode that we ran, we kind of got into shape. It wasn't quite there. And then suddenly the third episode, I said, okay, that's funny. We figured out, and in no small part, Nick Kroll was a secret weapon, but by the time we figured out on episode three how we could make a show that we could be somewhat proud of, after the first episode aired, we were already dead. We were summarily executed, but go to YouTube and watch some of the later episodes of Caveman, which are still illegally out there. And it's actually a pretty funny show, and it's got a great cast. I'm not sure Steve McPherson was in his right mind when he picked it up.
Michael Jamin:
It's so interesting. I mean, you're absolutely right. No matter what show you're working on, you're going to find something that you love about it. You'll take pride and you'll lean into that. But yeah, you're right, because we did an animated show and for some reason they decided to put a laugh track on the first episode. And I remember yelling, why wouldn't there be a laugh track on an animated who exactly is laughing? Are we going to see the other animated characters in the audience who's laughing and lost that fight? For sure. And we got raked over the coals justifiably. So once you had that stink on you,
Bill Martin:
Yeah, yeah.
Michael Jamin:
We fought it. You can't fight. You can't win every fight. What are you going to do?
Bill Martin:
I don't think you can win any fight, can you?
Michael Jamin:
I wouldn't know what that's like.
We did a show, oh my God. We did a show that was very low budget, and we had a slow mall budget for food. And so I sent the PA to go to the Whole Foods and get me these yogurts that I like that has the fruit on the side. It was a hundred dollars, whatever, just get some yogurt. And we submitted it in, and then we got yelled at by the studio saying, why is this bill from Whole Foods? And I remember saying, well, whatever, it's a hundred dollars. Does it matter where we spend it? And they go, yeah.
Bill Martin:
Oh no,
Michael Jamin:
You're not. A Whole Foods kind of show.
Bill Martin:
This is a Ralph's show.
Michael Jamin:
This is the Vaughn's Show. Yeah, that was So, yeah, you don't even win that fight, but maybe you wouldn't morph. I don't know. You must be able to win some fights.
Bill Martin:
Well, it's also one of the things, I think because I'm not an aggressive person, I always start every show with, I'm so lucky to have this. How lucky I got a parking space and a computer. I get to make a TV show. And sometimes I don't realize until I'm doing something I hate, I'll go like, oh, shit, I should have this. Didn't have to be this way.
Michael Jamin:
So
Bill Martin:
I think as we've gotten older, we've gotten crunchier, and we'll be a little more blunt about things, but certainly early on it was just like, pinch me. I can't believe you guys are letting me drive the car here. It's
Michael Jamin:
Great. Yeah. But that's a big jump because was the first show you ran, was it grounded for Life?
Bill Martin:
No, the first show we ran was actually House of Bugging because of some weird politics. The showrunners got fired and we got bumped upstairs out of nowhere, and we were in our twenties and didn't know what we were doing, but we were already in Queens and they needed someone to,
Michael Jamin:
You were in Queens?
Bill Martin:
Yeah, we were the only ones in Queens
Michael Jamin:
Who
Bill Martin:
Could possibly do this job. So when we came back to do Third Rock, we had artificially inflated titles because we'd run House of Buggin. But then during the second season of Third Rock, the Turners tapped us to take over for them. Oh,
Michael Jamin:
I didn't even know that. I'm sorry. I didn't know that. Was that scary for you running?
Bill Martin:
You know what? It wasn't because it was the happiest place on earth and curtained. I mean, I hate to be Mr. Aw Shucks show business so fun. But that cast made work such a joy that there was no way it go wrong. Had an amazing writing staff, and the actors were delightful. It felt weirdly easy to do. I mean, we were stressed because we knew that we were being handed a baby and the baby was successful and 20 million people watching the baby every week. So there was certainly some pressure on us, but at the same time, we knew we could do it. And we knew that everybody had our backs with a very nice familial situation.
Michael Jamin:
It really was. I mean, that show really was, it was a big show. It was one of the shows everyone talked about if you were trying to break into show business, you had a spec for that show. It was a big responsibility. It was an honor to get tapped.
Bill Martin:
Yeah.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Everyone loved that. Yep. Then, okay, what shows should we talk about more? I don't know. What shows do you want to talk? They're all great. I dunno. Tell me some experiences that you've had. I don't want to go one by one, there's too many.
Bill Martin:
Yeah. Well, so far the ones you've skipped are good ones to skip. You steer running into caveman, but that's fine.
Michael Jamin:
I did.
Bill Martin:
I guess really for me, shows are divided up into the shows we ran and the shows you worked on. And typically, if you're not running a show, there are creative frustrations that you feel because you wish things were different. That said one of the most fantastic experiences of our career was working on trial and error because Jeff Astro of the showrunner and he'd worked for us. So we kind of had that, you got to listen to us a little bit, Jeff, and we helped get John Liko to agree to do it. And at that point, we'd been on a few Multicam that weren't great, and this was a real interesting single cam, fake doc with John, and he was super serialized, like a true crime series. And that was just a blast. And I'm still very proud of that season. We did not work on the second season. They sent it to Canada and shaved off half the staff and it killed Jeff Astro.
Michael Jamin:
Really? When you say,
Bill Martin:
Well, was Christian Chen, it was still a great season, but it was not as easy. It was kind of Warner Brothers was trying to cut every corner they could on it. So
Michael Jamin:
When you say killed them, they overworked him and cut the staff. Yeah, yeah. People don't realize that I think be brutal. And then of course, the Unicorn, which went two seasons, and that's a big deal. That's really, when I think about it now, it's actually quite a big deal that you got your own show on a network these days when they pick up two shows a year, maybe it's nothing.
Bill Martin:
No, that was really threading a needle there because we had pitched it all over the place, and it's based on a true story, based on a friend of ours who went through this awful situation where he lost his wife when his kids were young. And we finally sold it c v s on the last day of selling anything. It was like October and Julie Per Worth calls the last second and said, we want to do it. We went, oh, no fucking way. So I mean, it was something that was both a passion project and just endless sadness for us. And so we started doing it and it went back and forth single multi, single, multi. We're trying to find the right guy to play the guy. And we knew, we'd always said, this is a single cam and it's going to be serialized and it should probably be on a streamer because that was when streamers seemed like the promised land, but c b s one, even though their forte was malteses. But then we met Walton Goggins who only came in because one of our producers is Peyton Reed, who's an old college friend of ours, and the guy who inspired the show and he'd worked with Walton on Antman. And so Walton trusted him and he came in for a meeting and Walton is just the greatest guy.
Michael Jamin:
So
Bill Martin:
He saw this, he found he had a personal identification with the guy, and once he jumped in, he said, I'll do it. I mean, it's going to be single, obviously, but I'm in. And David Nevins and everybody at CCBs were so thrilled that Walton Goggins wanted to do a sitcom that's like suddenly we were fast tracked and it was all the way onto television.
Michael Jamin:
Wow. Did you pitch it cool with the title The Unicorn? Because I was like, that's a smart title. I would think that, yeah,
Bill Martin:
It's funny. It did. And Mike Schiff never liked it.
Michael Jamin:
Oh really?
Bill Martin:
By the way, Mike's usually right, and I'm wrong about stuff, but I do like to Lord it over him. I assume he's going to listen to this. He didn't care for it. But it's one of those things, once it leaked out, people said, oh my God, oh my God, that's perfect. And the fact was it had to happened to coincide with a time when unicorns were everywhere. Unicorn kitty pools. And it was the unicorn moment anyway. Yeah,
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. I remember hearing about it. It was like, ah, damn, I'm surprised you said it took so long to sell. Like damn it, that one sells right away. That's an idea that sells. So
Bill Martin:
It's interesting.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah,
Bill Martin:
We didn't make up the title. It's what
Michael Jamin:
I know.
Bill Martin:
Guys like Grady are known as on Tinder. They check all these magical boxes for what a perfect guy should be.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, right. That's such a great, and then after that, the neighborhood which you jumped in, it had already been running for, no, tell me if I'm wrong.
Bill Martin:
Yes, it had, here's my vindictive tale of revenge. It's not vindictive at all by the way, but we had a pilot with Cedric. We had run his show, the Soul Man on TV Land for a couple of years.
Great guy. We had a great time there. And when that ended, he said, let's do another show together. So we pitched out a show that it was his idea and his manager, Eric's idea, to do a show where he's a fire chief. So we pitched it and c b s bought it. We wrote it, it was a single cam, was kind of gritty because we wanted to do something that was hard to produce as usual. And at the end of the day, they didn't want to pick it up. But we were producing with Eric Kaplan, I should me, Aaron Kaplan. And Aaron quickly plucked Cedric out of our pilot and put him in the neighborhood, which was his other pilot. So we were basically just for him, a Cedric delivery system.
So we weren't bitter because we knew Jim Reynolds. He's a great guy. And we were happy for everybody except that shit. And there goes our pilot. But it's funny, when we were producing the Unicorn, we were in the neighborhood's offices. It just happened to be that we were having the same line producer, pat Kinlin, who had done Third Rock with us. And Jim was in the midst of the first season of the neighborhood. And it was hard because first seasons are hard. And he was like, oh my God, this is killing me. And I jokingly said, don't worry when you get fired season three, we'll come in and take over. And it seemed hilarious at the time. And what do you know? It happens. And to Jim's credit, he did think it was funny that my smart ass remark had come full circle.
Michael Jamin:
And what was it like stepping into the show that wasn't yours? I mean, you've, not that you've done it before, but still
Bill Martin:
It's hard. Yeah, it's hard. And we came in with a whole new people. The feeling was clean slate, let's reboot this. And we had heard from Pat Kinlin the producer, you're going to love it here. It's the happiest set since Third Rock. And I was like going, yeah, yeah, yeah, nice try. But it kind of was, the cast had jelled and the crew was cool, and it was a very happy place. I mean, there had been issues, but we pretty quickly felt at home there. It was nice. And that's why we would love to stay there as long as possible.
Michael Jamin:
Maybe you will. I mean, well, we'll see what happens to the strike, but maybe you will. I mean, it seems like now they're giving shows a longer, tell me if I'm wrong, networks are giving shows a longer chance because it's too risky almost to not.
Bill Martin:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think for c b s shows built around someone that people love, said it's hard to recreate that when you have someone who's that warm and magnetic at the center of a show. You're halfway there already and the show is steadily. I mean, obviously all audiences are declining and atomizing all over the place, but it feels like the numbers have defied gravity a little.
Michael Jamin:
Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.
What's it like now? Because one of the biggest things, you've obviously staffed a million shows and you got to read specs from, you must stick through a pile of specs every season when you're doing this. What are you looking for in new writers?
Bill Martin:
Yeah, it's funny. For the last 10 years or so, you only read pilots because there aren't any spec shows to write anymore because there aren't any water cooler shows that everybody knows.
So I mean, it used to be, and I kind of like it because someone could write a good per enthusiasm that sounded right and had the rhythms, but it might not mean they were capable of a lot of things. It just meant they had created a good version of this very specific thing. Pilots, the writer's whole personality comes out. And I think it's nice to you get a peek into how weird someone is, and we just want people who are different and weird, and you want that array of points of view to be very, you don't want eight Mike Schiffs lock, Lord, help us. And I think it's really just if someone catches you off guard with something you didn't expect to be funny. And people who just write characters, the one thing I hate more than anything, and if your spec starts with single people in an apartment talking about sex, I'm not going to read page two. It's like there's thousands of them, and it's very hard to get anything out of that.
Michael Jamin:
That's interesting. I've said the opposite. I've said to me, it's easier to read a speck of an existing show. I know the characters, I might know the characters, and it's easier for me to see do they get the voice. But if it's a pilot, it's
Bill Martin:
Easier. That's the key, Michael. It's too easy.
Michael Jamin:
But if it's a pilot,
Bill Martin:
Someone's,
Michael Jamin:
It's hard for me. Don't make me do more work. If I'm reading, that's the problem. If I'm reading an original pilot sometimes, okay, first I have to remember with the characters, okay, who's this character? What's their relationship? And then I'm like, okay, what's the tone here? It's hard for me to, are they trying to be big or is this just bad writing? You have to figure that out too. No, you're more of that
Bill Martin:
Mind. It's more work to read a pilot. It is, but I think when someone pops out of a pile, it's a bigger pop when they've created something entertaining whole cloth.
Michael Jamin:
Right. Well, that's true. That's true. And
Bill Martin:
Also for Multicam, s, jokes matter, but for single cams, you need a couple of people who write jokes. But also then it's a lot about story and character. And I think it's harder to get that from sitcom specs. It's easier to get that from something that's personal to somebody.
Michael Jamin:
Do you have a preference as to what you want a single or multi?
Bill Martin:
The artist in me wants to do single. The person who has to wake up and go to work and then get home and be happy, likes multi,
Michael Jamin:
But the Multicam, the hours are worse,
Bill Martin:
Is so great.
Michael Jamin:
Wait, multi. If you're doing a rewrite on a multi-camera after a network run through, you might be there at all midnight or whatever.
Bill Martin:
Never.
Michael Jamin:
Never. You always have good,
Bill Martin:
Well, no, by the way, yes, you're right. But on the neighborhood, I don't think we had dinner three or four times. There is, and that's not because we're so fantastic. It's because the show works. If a Multicam works, the hours are great. If a Multicam doesn't work, then you're right. If the run through is so bad that you're reworking the story. And we've been there too, and we had even Third Rock early on, we had some late nights. But in the ideal world, when a Multicam is working, it's the best job in the world, and Sedric knows what he wants. He's also approving the stories. He's approving the pitches early on. So we're not taking something to the table that he's not invested in. So I think, and if he were an ogre or had bad taste, it would be terrible. But the combination of him trusting us and us trusting him has made it a really sweet gig.
Michael Jamin:
So you'll pitch him, okay, I'm curious how it works. You'll start breaking a story. You won't get too far. Maybe you'll have some act breaks and then you'll bring it to Cedric. But you won't do more than that. You won't do more work than that. Right.
Bill Martin:
You never know when he'll say, and sometimes he does that thing too, where he'll go like, no, I don't know about that. How about that? Instead like, oh, okay, that fine. That's easy to do. He's great at having that natural story sense of what his character would do.
Michael Jamin:
Now, did you ever pitch him or anybody else? This is my fear. You pitch them, here's a great story idea for you. And they go, oh yeah, they love it. And then you go take it to the room and you go, I don't know how to break this.
Bill Martin:
Yes,
Michael Jamin:
I thought I know how to break it, but I don't how to break it.
Bill Martin:
That is what I would do if I didn't have a super anal partner. But Mike, and we know we still have those times, but once I have an idea, I'm good to go, Hey, look at this great idea. Let's go. But Mike's only like, I need to stare this for a day. So we say we give Cedric ideas early in the process, but the fact is we send them through the ship Aron 8,000 before
Michael Jamin:
The
Bill Martin:
Upgrade, they get out of the room.
Michael Jamin:
And so I'm just curious. So it's a couple of you may spend, let's say two or three days on a story idea and then bring it to him.
Bill Martin:
Yeah. I mean, some are easy, some are one day, some we will break five different times and still get it wrong. And the six time will do it. I mean, we work hard and Lord knows when we go back into production and we're going to have a three minute pre-production period, we're going to be fucked. But last season we had eight weeks. It was plenty of time to find our rhythm there,
Michael Jamin:
Right then. Okay. Then after that, you still got a picture to the studio and then the network, and they can still say no or to you saying, well, Cedric really likes this.
Bill Martin:
Yes, we do. And the thing is, it's not just Cedric, it's also Wendy Trilling who used to be the head of CCB ss. And she is cool, and she's smart, and she's not afraid to hurt our feelings, which I love about her Eted, her trust her. So in a weird way, by the time the network sees it, they know Wendy likes it. And if Wendy and Cedric like it, they tend to say, in fact, at a certain point, we said, can we stop doing outlines and go, we have a very detailed story document. Can we just go to script? And they'll say, okay. So that also helped us that they would trust that process.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, that's actually, it's a big advantage that Wendy's producer in the show because yeah, she knows what the network wants. They trust her. And so it's almost like it almost removes an obstacle in the future. You get it out of the way. Now that's interesting.
Bill Martin:
And also, it's something that we want to do, and Wendy has signed off on it. It's like, we don't have to be dick's. We can say, I know, but let's see it on its feet because everybody over here likes it. It usually works for us.
Michael Jamin:
And are they bringing audiences back now? How does it work?
Bill Martin:
They started to, the problem we had last year was they did the whole season before we got there, block and shoot, because they had no choice. And it frankly made everybody a little relaxed because it was very easy lifestyle. And the fact is, when you have an audience that's basically crew and extras, it's easy to not go hard for the laughs on the other side when you have Tashina Arnold and Cedric, the Entertainer, and Max and Beth, these are people who swing for the fence every time. So I honestly don't think you can tell they weren't doing it for audience because they're selling it so hard in a great way. So last season we still did block blockage shoot, and we kept saying, the audience is going to be back any second. We're about to go back to audiences. But it was working. What
Michael Jamin:
Do you do? So now that you're on strike, what is it like for you now on strike when you don't have these creative muscles to flex? What, are you craving anything? Or are you doing anything on the side, a novel or something?
Bill Martin:
No, I mean, I think me and Mike are revisiting things that we had to put aside and doing brain work on them, because we don't want to waste this time completely. But early on, early on, it had been a long time since we had an off season where we knew we had a job to go back to. Third Rock was like that, and Grounded was like that. But it's been years since we had a non panicky off season. And this finally, we had a pickup. This was like, ah, I'm going to go on vacation, A real vacation. And that vacation turned into the strike, but I was like going, it's a strike, but still, we're going back. It's September. And it just gradually dawned on me like, oh, this is really hurting the show. So I've kind of been in denial that I needed to worry.
I mean, all signs are that when the strike is over at whatever, we are going to go back to work. And people still want the show, and Cedric's still ready to go, but it takes some of the fun out of it, obviously. And I shouldn't be complaining because we're still in such an ideal position. The last strike, we had to walk off the set on cavemen and let other people edit the show and completely divorce ourselves from that. We've been killing ourselves on and getting force majeure out of a deal. I mean, it just destroyed our career completely. This is a much less terrifying strike, even though it's plenty terrifying.
Michael Jamin:
It's so interesting because how
Bill Martin:
About you? I mean, are you able to function creatively? Are you
Michael Jamin:
Retaining your
Bill Martin:
Wife?
Michael Jamin:
No. Well, I have definitely both, but I have a book that I'm writing on the side, so that's my little passion project that keeps me entertained writing and performing it. But in terms of, it's interesting that you still panic about that next job. And for me, it feels like, wow, I guess I stopped panicking a long time ago. I don't know why, but you're so successful and you always get that next job and don't know.
Bill Martin:
That's how it looks. I'm looks,
Michael Jamin:
I'm looking at your I M D V page. It definitely looks that way,
Bill Martin:
Yes. But it's a lot of times where we were falling off the building and grabbed onto the ledge with our fingernails, and we took a lot of jobs that were under our quote just to keep working. We've had our feast and famine. Certainly I M D B looks chock full of stuff, but
Michael Jamin:
We've taken jobs who always, I mean, plenty of jobs under our quote. I mean, it's just like, while it's that unemployment, so you take the job, yeah.
Bill Martin:
After you take three jobs in a row under your quote, it's no longer a quote.
Michael Jamin:
Well, I remember on that first one, I was like, we have a quote. We have no anonymous quotes anymore, so why is it a quote? What's going on here? But yeah, it's so interesting that you still have that feeling looking at, for me, from where I stand, wow, the grass is really green where UI guys are. So it's interesting. Well,
Bill Martin:
I hope I'm relaxing now. I finally got my kids out of college, so this was my first year without tuition payments.
Michael Jamin:
Interesting.
Bill Martin:
In 25.
Michael Jamin:
What are they going to do now? Are they going to get in Hollywood in the
Bill Martin:
Business? Nope. Nope. None of them are interested. I mean, one of them in particular certainly should be, he's hilarious. But the thought of putting himself out there creatively in a business that has no easy way in anymore, I think he just is very happy to be a barista, not put himself out there because it's nerve wracking. And I get it.
Michael Jamin:
How do you see most people, the new people that you're working with, the young kids, how are they breaking in then?
Bill Martin:
Yeah, I don't know. That's the scary thing about this tipping point we're at right now is when I hear stories about young writers who make a year out of four mini rooms on shows that they've even heard of. I mean, the fact is that the business has become so diffuse that those clear paths, pa, writer, assistant writer's room, job, those are so few and far between now. I can't figure it out. People aren't going through these main arteries. They're going through these weird tiny capillaries to weird things.
Michael Jamin:
Right?
Bill Martin:
Pretty good analogy.
Michael Jamin:
I love it. You should be a doctor. But don't ask, would they show up? I mean, you have a staff and you don't ask 'em where the script has somehow got on your desk to an agent or a manager, and you're like, okay, you're hired, basically.
Bill Martin:
But the thing is, on the neighborhood, it's quite a few standups,
And it's a few people that we know and trust from years of working with them and a couple of young people who were writer assistants who are knocking on doors. But it's funny because we had so many people in place, it wasn't like we were out beating the bushes for new voices that were coming out of nowhere. But I'm sure that's true in a lot of places. It's just that when you're at a C B S studio show that's already running, it's kind of like that old fashioned machinery that's feeding you. These writers is already there.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting because I don't know, I'm not sure how people are doing it. We gave a talk at, I think at L M U, and there's a young woman, and she just made a hit podcast, and then that got her discovered. It was like a scripted podcast. I was like, oh, tell me about that. Interesting. So do you have advice then for people listening, words,
Bill Martin:
Encouragement? Last night, I was giving advice to this year's crop of interns from the U N C Chapel Hill, which is where I went to college. In fact, look, there it is. And I had to apologize because I said, look, here's the traditional way in. If you want to get in the writer's room, become a pa. And I also admit that that way of getting into the business may disappear. And if you have other creative outlet, if you can do a great podcast, if you put stuff up on YouTube or you have TikTok, there's a lot of ways to express your comic voice that aren't writing sitcom specs and waiting for your turn in the writer's room as a dinosaur. I'm not really the perfect person to ask,
Michael Jamin:
But I think you're right. It's about put the creative energy out there, stop begging for work, start making your own opportunities, and probably good things. Good things may come your way, I guess. Right?
Bill Martin:
Hopefully. And I also would like to think as the strike goes on, people will periodically say, why doesn't someone do what Charlie Chaplin did? Do United Artists start a creator, talent driven production? And I do feel like when I listen to a great podcast like Valley Heat, which we were talking about before we went on, you realize there are ways to create an entire world for a show for no money. And in my mind, valley Heat, everyone should listen to this thing.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, listen to it. They
Bill Martin:
Should just take that, put it on camera, it's ready to go. I mean, it's a show that is fully developed that no one owns a piece of. And I guess that would be what my hope is, that if we don't like working within the system with these jerks, if you're young and have that energy, make something. Yeah. And who knows? I mean,
Michael Jamin:
See, we agree on that. We didn't agree on spec versus original pilots, but we agree on this.
Bill Martin:
That turned into a pretty ugly fight.
Michael Jamin:
It was contentious.
Bill Martin:
But that's the kind of heat that I think gets these podcasts to catch on.
Michael Jamin:
I think so. But also as you're learning your craft, you're getting better at it. And I don't know. I see it happening. I see people making a name for themselves. I was on the picket line, I think it was at Disney, and I ran into this guy. He was on my podcast, and he recognized me, and he was a joke writer on Kimmo. I go, how did you get that job? He goes, well, I was just tweeting Day and Jokes. I like doing it. And after about a year or two, they found me and they hired me. Good for you. But he was putting the work out. He was doing the work and getting better, and that's how he got hired. So
Bill Martin:
Good
Michael Jamin:
For him.
Bill Martin:
And it's been, I guess, shit, my dad says was the original tweet becomes a show, and
Michael Jamin:
We all rolled eyes
Bill Martin:
That from the caveman syndrome of cynicism about how are you tuning it Twitter into a show? But if you're funny, people will find you.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah. But like I said, I remember that happening, really? Is this how it works now? But they were just at the forefront and yeah, that's how it works now.
Bill Martin:
Yeah. Yeah.
Michael Jamin:
Damn right. I'm always late to the trend. So Interesting. And I guess before I wrap up, what is it like for you working? People want to know, working with a writing partner, how does that dynamic work with you guys?
Bill Martin:
Well, there aren't a lot of writing partnerships that last this long. I mean, you guys and Al and Krinsky, there's a few. And I think for me, it's having that yin yang thing. I'm not a worrier, I'm not detail oriented. I don't tend to stress out, and Mike does, and I only really want to do half the job of running a show. Luckily, he can do the other half. So I mean, I think a lot of partnerships are based on people having the same sense of humor and just getting along, and that's great. But for me and Mike, we don't actually get along all that great, but we do agree on what's funny and we respect each other and it makes the job doable.
Michael Jamin:
Wait, you said you don't get along that great?
Bill Martin:
Well, we get along great, but I mean, one of us is a drunk pot smoking redneck from Florida who doesn't give a shit. And the other's an incredibly neurotic, buttoned up Jewish guy from the priest side. The only thing we have in common is Cheers and Albert Brooks.
Michael Jamin:
But you met in school, right? In film school,
Bill Martin:
Yes.
Michael Jamin:
Right.
Bill Martin:
Yeah. We just met because he was the only person in our writing class first year who I thought was funny. And so we just kind of found each other because we're the two guys writing comedy in that big screenwriting workshop.
Michael Jamin:
And you leapt into each other's arms. Yeah.
Bill Martin:
Yes.
Michael Jamin:
It's so interesting. But it is so funny when you said about it, you only want to do half the job of a showrunner. Yeah, it's a lot of work. It's a big job. That's something my partner and I say all the time, I don't really want to make this decision. Can you make it? It's a lot of work.
Bill Martin:
Yes.
Michael Jamin:
And a lot of times we'll punt it to even a hair and makeup. Well, what do you guys think? All right. You guys seem to got a good handle on what the wardrobe should be that you do it. Yeah. So
Bill Martin:
Interesting. I'm always very happy to let someone else do that.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah,
Bill Martin:
We do take turns firing people. That's the one awful, horrible thing. We haven't done it a lot. But the last guy
Michael Jamin:
Are talking about writers or other people.
Bill Martin:
Anything. Anybody. Yeah.
Michael Jamin:
Interesting. Because when we were on set on a single camera show, if one of us has to run onto the stage to give the actor a note or the director a note, it's always like, you do it. You do it. I don't want to, how many times am I going to go on set and tell them they're doing it wrong? Can't you tell them they're doing it wrong? I don't want to be that guy all the time. Yeah.
Bill Martin:
We had a great run for several years where whenever we would get a pickup, I'd be on stage and get to announce it, and every time
Michael Jamin:
We Good news got
Bill Martin:
Our order cut, Mike would be on stage and it was hilarious. I was the hero with the, and it was killing him. It was happening over and over again, just by God smiling on
Michael Jamin:
Me. Oh, that's so funny. That's freaking great. We did an episode, I think it was Andrew shoot me, we're writing a script and I was adamant that this joke was going to work, and Seever it was like, I don't even get it right. And I'm like, no, this joke is great. You have no idea what you're talking about. And so we take the descrip, I guess it got to the table somehow, and at the table we hit this joke, nothing, and the room's just silent. And I just start busting out laughing. I was like, oh my God, I can't believe how wrong I was. And I'm laughing at her wrong. And then afterwards, everyone's looking at Seabert. They're like, assuming it's his joke because I'm laughing at him and now I'm laughing even more pushing him under the bus. But yeah, there's that. But yeah, there's always, I guess I feel like maybe you feel the same way. If he comes up with a line, great. That's one last line I got to come up with. You know what I'm saying? It's mine now. Anyway, so yeah,
Bill Martin:
For me, the great thing about writing teams is, well, you're a single writer. You turn on a draft. When a team turns in a draft, it's a third draft because you've already fought it and it just makes things better. I mean, everybody has their partners. It just may not be there, someone they write with, but when you take it to the table or you take it to the writer's room, everyone's going to get a whack at it anyway. But for me, I think it just makes that initial idea, everything has to kind of, you beat things back and forth and you find 'em out and you end up with better drafts.
Michael Jamin:
Yeah, I totally agree. I always see that with writing teams. Their scripts just tend to be a little tighter. Just somehow they're a little tighter. They've already fought it, fought over it. So yeah. That's interesting. Well, bill Martin, thank you so much for doing this. This is a real pleasure. Honestly, it is an honor to have you on this and talk about your experience as a showrunner and a creator of really great television and yeah, it really is an honor. Thank you.
Bill Martin:
This has been great for my self-esteem. I don't normally talk about myself a lot, but man, I come off great.
Michael Jamin:
You certainly do. I'll fix that in editing. I'll ask these questions then put a long dead pause before you answer. People are like, what's wrong with this guy? Why is he taking so long to answer? But thank you again so much. Anything you want to promote or plug other than your shows or
Bill Martin:
Watch Season six of the Neighborhood when it comes on sometime in 2024? Yes.
Michael Jamin:
Hopefully that's sad. Yeah, that is sad. Well, thank you again so much. Alright, everyone, another great episode. I have to say of my podcast screenwriters, need to hear this. Keep following me and keep writing more. Good stuff coming. Thank you. Again,
Phil Hudson:
This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar @michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five-star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music, by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing. I.
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Amanda’s blog posts are read by actor Kendall Horn.
